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By not publicly and consistently condemning and/or holding their fellow officers accountable when they should be. The blue wall of silence. To be fair after t

By not publicly and consistently condemning and/or holding their fellow officers accountable when they should be. The blue wall of silence. To be fair after the murder of George Floyd you did see some officers and police chiefs doing this in the initial round of protests. Generally speaking though police departments have proven incredibly difficult to reform - there’s a lot of entrenched behavior, such that even if one officer isn’t engaging in anything illegal themself, the police culture brings huge pressure to bear against anyone who might condemn another officer for breaking the law.

Eric_WVGG 6y ago
This. "Good cops" would be pressuring police unions to crack down on bad cops, and taking the infiltration of American police departments by white supremacist militias seriously. Ergo, there are no good cops, or they are stifled into silence and might as well be bad cops. But as someone else pointed out, this article is about Canada, so I digress…
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  This is such a silly claim. There have been a handful of cases of white supremacists managed to get hired. Out of 800,000 cops. Terrorists, spies, and gang members manage to join government agencies and the military as well. Also, if you don’t know how many bad cops there are, and you don’t know how many good cops there are, and you have no clue how many good cops report on bad cops, you can’t even begin to make that claim. You’re just being an “ACAB” guy, despite the fact that you desperately need police.
  - 14 6y ago
    True. But I do have one anecdotal story. My brother was beat up in custody by local police but they forgot they were on camera or something so my brother got a hold of the footage through a lawyer and they paid my brother enough money he was able to put it to a down payment of a house. The finding of the investigation; the officer involved was guilty of assaulting him among other things such as not telling the truth as to what happened but since he was about to retire in a month they decided they would not be taking action towards the officer. My brother is a loser who probably mouthed him off and had it coming but this officer is also a loser for losing his cool in a professional setting costing me as a tax payer money. Was he actually punished? No. So the next officer as long as he is close to retirement thinks he can get off free. In a just society you get punished. I would be royally screwed if one week before my retirement I hit an elderly patient who got out of hand. So we don't have equal laws for people and police.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      Yeah, so it turns out that unwavering support for unions doesn’t always go as planned.
      - adamsea 6y ago
        Unions are a tool - a means for labor to organize and exercise power to see to the best interests of its members. Ideally that functions as a way for labor to negotiate with management for humane working conditions, etc, and for worker solidarity. Any tool can be abused. Plus police unions really do seem like a special case. In part because the profession of policing is one big special case, because they themselves are part of our system of law. Which really all should go without saying - I would hazard a guess that you already know most of what I am telling you :).
  - Eric_WVGG 6y ago
    We do know. They tell us, you're just not listening. https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard... Here's a cop who tried to report on corruption within the NYPD. His squadmates got him thrown into an insane asylum. The NYPD, by the way, is larger and more heavily funded than most armies. https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/05/04/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuys-81st-precinct/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/05/04/the-nypd-tapes-insid... "desperately need police" We used to "desperately need police" to get injured and wounded people to hospitals. The reason why ambulances do it instead is because the doctors noticed that cops would sometimes beat the shit out of patients en route. https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/02/12/all-black-ambulance-service-inspired-todays-ems-system/ https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/02/12/all-black-ambulanc... What's wrong with divvy'ing up every responsibility of "the police" and handing those responsibilities off to trained professionals?
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      Your link does nothing to support your claim. It’s a single anonymous anecdote. That is only good for confirming biases, not for analysis of data. I notice you also didn’t post the rebuttal. Again. 800,000. It’s impossible not to have issues come up, and even bad departments that come and go. Obviously, they should be dealt with. And no, the reason you need police is not for hospital rides. Assuming we are talking about developed nations, the NYPD is not larger and more heavily funded that most armies, and that stat wouldn’t have any relevance anyway. Your last claim goes from intellectual dishonesty to outright lying. Nowhere does that article say or even imply anything about cops beating or otherwise mistreating patients.
      - adamsea 6y ago
        “ A leaked 2015 counter-terrorism policy guide made the case more directly, warning agents that FBI “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers”.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/28/fbi-far-right-white-supremacists-police https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr... Or just google about the LA Sheriffs department - notorious: “ For decades, the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department has struggled to combat secretive cliques of deputies who bonded over aggressive, often violent police work and branded themselves with matching tattoos. A federal judge called out the problem nearly 30 years ago, accusing deputies of running a “neo-Nazi, white supremacist gang” named the Vikings within the Lynwood station. Others followed with names such as the Regulators, Grim Reapers, Rattlesnakes and the Jump Out Boys.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-compton-sheriff-shooting-20180710-story.html%3F_amp%3Dtrue https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-...
jmnicolas 6y ago
The US situation seen from French eyes is quite surprising. Here we have the IGPN, which is "the Police of Police" so when an officer does something wrong there's an inquiry about it. But more importantly, there are sanctions. The system isn't perfect by any mean but to give you an example of how infrequent Police murders are, our local BLM movement had to find a 4 year old case as their "George Floyd".
- legerdemain 6y ago
  How many Palantir contracts does French law enforcement and counterintelligence pay for? Anything in addition to the DGSI contract?
  - jmnicolas 6y ago
    I don't see the point you're trying to make, sorry. My answer was about Police brutality, not privacy.
    - legerdemain 6y ago
      Predictive policing is associated with selective policing, increasing the rate of police encounters for a set of people. Getting accosted by the police because I live in an area with higher crime is a danger to my well-being, because every encounter with the police carries risk.
      - jmnicolas 6y ago
        We're not speaking of the same thing hence my confusion. To reduce risks with Police encounters, they have to be accountable. It seems to me that the US Police would benefit from more accountability so I gave the example of the French Police. I have no idea what they do with predictive policing here, but if they use it I can tell you with confidence that it's not working at all.
      - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        It’s actually been demonstrated that more police in high crime areas reduces crime and increases safety. When they pull back, crime goes up. So I don’t know why people say this. I also don’t know why people think it makes more sense to divert police resources away from where crimes are happening. Not even the linked report agrees with this.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
None of these criticisms are objective, quantifiable, or actionable as written. I think this is the single biggest barrier to police reform.

Eric_WVGG 6y ago

This. "Good cops" would be pressuring police unions to crack down on bad cops, and taking the infiltration of American police departments by white supremacist militias seriously. Ergo, there are no good cops, or they are stifled into silence and might as well be bad cops. But as someone else pointed out, this article is about Canada, so I digress…

lawnchair_larry 6y ago
This is such a silly claim. There have been a handful of cases of white supremacists managed to get hired. Out of 800,000 cops. Terrorists, spies, and gang members manage to join government agencies and the military as well. Also, if you don’t know how many bad cops there are, and you don’t know how many good cops there are, and you have no clue how many good cops report on bad cops, you can’t even begin to make that claim. You’re just being an “ACAB” guy, despite the fact that you desperately need police.
- 14 6y ago
  True. But I do have one anecdotal story. My brother was beat up in custody by local police but they forgot they were on camera or something so my brother got a hold of the footage through a lawyer and they paid my brother enough money he was able to put it to a down payment of a house. The finding of the investigation; the officer involved was guilty of assaulting him among other things such as not telling the truth as to what happened but since he was about to retire in a month they decided they would not be taking action towards the officer. My brother is a loser who probably mouthed him off and had it coming but this officer is also a loser for losing his cool in a professional setting costing me as a tax payer money. Was he actually punished? No. So the next officer as long as he is close to retirement thinks he can get off free. In a just society you get punished. I would be royally screwed if one week before my retirement I hit an elderly patient who got out of hand. So we don't have equal laws for people and police.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Yeah, so it turns out that unwavering support for unions doesn’t always go as planned.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      Unions are a tool - a means for labor to organize and exercise power to see to the best interests of its members. Ideally that functions as a way for labor to negotiate with management for humane working conditions, etc, and for worker solidarity. Any tool can be abused. Plus police unions really do seem like a special case. In part because the profession of policing is one big special case, because they themselves are part of our system of law. Which really all should go without saying - I would hazard a guess that you already know most of what I am telling you :).
- Eric_WVGG 6y ago
  We do know. They tell us, you're just not listening. https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard... Here's a cop who tried to report on corruption within the NYPD. His squadmates got him thrown into an insane asylum. The NYPD, by the way, is larger and more heavily funded than most armies. https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/05/04/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuys-81st-precinct/ https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/05/04/the-nypd-tapes-insid... "desperately need police" We used to "desperately need police" to get injured and wounded people to hospitals. The reason why ambulances do it instead is because the doctors noticed that cops would sometimes beat the shit out of patients en route. https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/02/12/all-black-ambulance-service-inspired-todays-ems-system/ https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/02/12/all-black-ambulanc... What's wrong with divvy'ing up every responsibility of "the police" and handing those responsibilities off to trained professionals?
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Your link does nothing to support your claim. It’s a single anonymous anecdote. That is only good for confirming biases, not for analysis of data. I notice you also didn’t post the rebuttal. Again. 800,000. It’s impossible not to have issues come up, and even bad departments that come and go. Obviously, they should be dealt with. And no, the reason you need police is not for hospital rides. Assuming we are talking about developed nations, the NYPD is not larger and more heavily funded that most armies, and that stat wouldn’t have any relevance anyway. Your last claim goes from intellectual dishonesty to outright lying. Nowhere does that article say or even imply anything about cops beating or otherwise mistreating patients.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      “ A leaked 2015 counter-terrorism policy guide made the case more directly, warning agents that FBI “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers”.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/28/fbi-far-right-white-supremacists-police https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr... Or just google about the LA Sheriffs department - notorious: “ For decades, the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department has struggled to combat secretive cliques of deputies who bonded over aggressive, often violent police work and branded themselves with matching tattoos. A federal judge called out the problem nearly 30 years ago, accusing deputies of running a “neo-Nazi, white supremacist gang” named the Vikings within the Lynwood station. Others followed with names such as the Regulators, Grim Reapers, Rattlesnakes and the Jump Out Boys.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-compton-sheriff-shooting-20180710-story.html%3F_amp%3Dtrue https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-...

jmnicolas 6y ago

The US situation seen from French eyes is quite surprising. Here we have the IGPN, which is "the Police of Police" so when an officer does something wrong there's an inquiry about it. But more importantly, there are sanctions. The system isn't perfect by any mean but to give you an example of how infrequent Police murders are, our local BLM movement had to find a 4 year old case as their "George Floyd".

legerdemain 6y ago
How many Palantir contracts does French law enforcement and counterintelligence pay for? Anything in addition to the DGSI contract?
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  I don't see the point you're trying to make, sorry. My answer was about Police brutality, not privacy.
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    Predictive policing is associated with selective policing, increasing the rate of police encounters for a set of people. Getting accosted by the police because I live in an area with higher crime is a danger to my well-being, because every encounter with the police carries risk.
    - jmnicolas 6y ago
      We're not speaking of the same thing hence my confusion. To reduce risks with Police encounters, they have to be accountable. It seems to me that the US Police would benefit from more accountability so I gave the example of the French Police. I have no idea what they do with predictive policing here, but if they use it I can tell you with confidence that it's not working at all.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      It’s actually been demonstrated that more police in high crime areas reduces crime and increases safety. When they pull back, crime goes up. So I don’t know why people say this. I also don’t know why people think it makes more sense to divert police resources away from where crimes are happening. Not even the linked report agrees with this.

s1artibartfast 6y ago

None of these criticisms are objective, quantifiable, or actionable as written. I think this is the single biggest barrier to police reform.