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There are youtube videos of ATC recordings (with transcripts) of pilots losing their cool. You are right, I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the re

There are youtube videos of ATC recordings (with transcripts) of pilots losing their cool. You are right, I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the recordings I've listened to. This quote from the article made me smile: >> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA."

BurningFrog 6y ago
Stakes are higher when you're on the plane...
- bityard 6y ago
  Negative. Pilots only ever have to worry about one plane. ATCs have to worry about all of them.
  - dividedbyzero 6y ago
    But that one plane has you on it.
  - mark-r 6y ago
    ATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident.
    - hnlmorg 6y ago
      You don't need to be physically sat on the plane to emphasise with the severity of the situation. It's not like ATCs are willing pilots to die. And sometimes not being able to physically control the actions of the pilots can add to the stress.
      - mark-r 6y ago
        I wasn't claiming that ATC isn't one of the most stressful jobs on the planet. Merely agreeing with GP that the pilot has more skin in the game.
        hnlmorg 6y ago
        The point of the conversation was about which is more stressful. Obviously having "more skin in the game" would directly increase the stress levels but yourself and others who posted like you completely miss the point that the ATCs are there to ensure safe travel and they very much are invested in that mission too. Comments like "well they're not going to die so why would they lose their cool" are just harsh and entirely miss the point of why the ATC are there in the first place. The key reason for why ATC don't lose their cool has nothing to do with who is more stressed or has more "skin in the game" and everything to do with the fact that if ATC lose their cool then the pilot is more likely to die... and possibly other planes and their passengers and crew too. In order to save lives ATC have to keep their cool even when everyone else around them panics. That's the real crux of the matter.
        enneff 6y ago
        In addition to what you say here, most of the ATC job is about maintaining order and safety, while for a pilot there are many other factors (and accidents happen when pilots get distracted by those other factors). The ATC is constantly thinking about possible accidents, while the pilot has more opportunity to have their thoughts elsewhere.
        kaybe 6y ago
        The term I've heard is 'task saturation' and I absolutely love it (the term, not the situation). (The solution proposed is usually to pull some science staff from science into operation, which luckily didn't have to happen so far.)
      - rurp 6y ago
        I can relate to this from rock climbing. Typically one climber at a time leads while the other belays (manages the rope). The leader is the one at physical risk but the most scared I've felt has been belaying. Being the belayer means you don't have much control and are mostly just watching closely and hoping your buddy doesn't get hurt. Being in a scary lead situation forces you to concentrate which pushes a lot of the fear emotions aside. Worry and fear take a lot of energy, energy which often can't be spared in an emergency where you have some control over the situation.
    - dyingkneepad 6y ago
      They just need to forever live believing their mistake caused the death of 350 people?
      - danso 6y ago
        Would that fear of future shame be as primal as the fear of imminent death, at the moment of conflict?
        Retric 6y ago
        Probably, people regularly place their own lives as a much lower priority than the group their part of. I assume most air traffic controllers get emotionally invested as their actively talking to the pilots involved.
        enneff 6y ago
        I’d rather die than kill hundreds of people in error.
        mark-r 6y ago
        That may be true, but your brain reacts at a more primitive level in the moment.
        Retric 6y ago
        That really depends on the person and situation. Some people get really emotional, but it’s also common for people in highly stressful life or death situations to emotionally shut down and end up going through rote responses. This is dangerous because you effectively lose creativity and can easily get stuck in a loop repeatedly doing the same things. One example is WWII commanders would sometimes continue to bring ammunition to machine gun nests even when just adding it to large piles. It may have been the best option when they start, but they never revisit that choice. The same thing happens to pilots where people investigate a crash and find pilots keep doing the exact same thing that’s not working for several minutes without considering that perhaps some assumption they have is wrong. Finally, some people don’t seem to react much at all to such personal risks.
    - outworlder 6y ago
      > ATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident. ATC can have a larger stake than any single pilot. Consider a mid air collision scenario, for instance. They will handle more lives daily than a pilot. Don't dismiss it. ATC involved in incidents can suffer from severe PTSD.
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    Yes, but it’s like the difference between the chicken and the pig at breakfast.
    - dvtrn 6y ago
      This comparison flew over my head easily at about 20,000 feet, anyone else? Can someone give me clearance to land this bird, 20L please.
      - saxonww 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig
      - robodale 6y ago
        Bringing the egg....versus being the bacon.
        garmaine 6y ago
        It falls flat because people eat chicken for breakfast too..
        bewaretheirs 6y ago
        when used rhetorically it's usually with an explicit context of "bacon & eggs" or "ham & eggs"
        dvtrn 6y ago
        Wait but what if I’m eating oyakodon with some crumbled bacon on top? /kidding, I know this is an absurd stretch of the terms, appreciate all the explanations.
      - jlgaddis 6y ago
        There’s several variations due to varying languages, dialects, and such but I always heard what he’s referring to phrased like this: > ”The chicken is involved but the pig is committed.” That is, while both are needed to make breakfast, the pig has a bigger stake in the project. The chicken may be providing the eggs but the pig is being eaten!
  - sneak 6y ago
    Pilots are solely responsible for the safety of the plane and the passengers, not ATC. ATC is an aid for the pilot in this responsibility.
nl 6y ago
> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA." The SR71 radio speed check was in LA too. I heard a Cessna ask for a readout of its ground speed. '90 knots Center replied. Moments later,a Twin Beech required the same. '120 knots' Center answered. We weren’t the only ones proud of our ground speed that day as almost instantly an F-18 smugly transmitted: 'Ah, Center, Dusty 52 requests ground speed readout.' There was a slight pause, then the response, '620 knots on the ground, Dusty.' As I was thinking to myself how ripe a situation this was, I heard a familiar click of a radio transmission coming from my back-seater. It was at that precise moment I realized Walt and I had become a real crew, for we were both thinking in unison. 'Center, Aspen 20, you got a ground speed readout for us?' There was a longer than normal pause 'Aspen, I show 1,942 knots.' No further inquiries were heard on that frequency. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-tells-story-his-famed-ground-speed-check-72136 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot...
- sandworm101 6y ago
  That story is often told but is generally considered apocryphal. There is too much wrong with it procedurally. It's funny, but not likely a conversation that actually happened.
  - autisticcurio 6y ago
    Dont under estimate what the military get up to. The MK1 Lynx helicopter (Westland Lynx) didnt have a black box flight recorder, and as it had the world speed record, many pilots when entertaining new recruits would attempt to scare the wotsit out of them by flying over the mountain tops of Wales before nose diving the chopper towards the valley floor to see how fast they could get it to go. Noisy! On a par with flying with The Blades who are ex Red Arrow pilots.
  - CPLX 6y ago
    What's the procedural problem with it? It's possibly a little too cute or maybe embellished, but there's nothing in it that sounds impossible or beyond plausibility. For reference I have a pilot's license.
bewaretheirs 6y ago
Not ATC but here's a classic viral recording of a frazzled ground controller herding cats at JFK airport in NY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0
- defnotashton2 6y ago
  Absolutely lost it about a minute in when he goes "you guys can't.. Just do that.."
- alfalfasprout 6y ago
  Well, ground controllers are notorious for being constantly annoyed... and I can't blame them. When they're on tower duty it's less common.
  - quacked 6y ago
    Can you expand a little bit? I thought all ATC that talked to planes were in the towers.
    - Stratoscope 6y ago
      A tower controller at an airport talks to planes in the air as they arrive and depart. They are in the tower so they can see the planes visually, and may also have radar available. Ground control also works in the tower, after all they have to be able to see the airport taxiways. They may also have a separate ground radar. They are only talking to planes on the ground. At a busy airport, these will be separate individuals working each of these duties. At a less busy airport, or during quieter hours, the same controller may work both tower and ground simultaneously. There are also "center" controllers who work in the enroute traffic centers. They are not in towers and often not at any airport, as they talk with planes at altitude and work by radar and voice communication, not visual. For example, in a typical departure, you first talk to ground control for taxi clearance and instructions. When you are ready for departure (near but not yet on the runway!) ground will say "contact tower on 123.45" (or whatever frequency), and tower will clear you for takeoff. After you've taken off, tower may say "contact center on 124.56" (again, whatever the frequency is). While you're flying, each center controller will hand you off to a different center (and different frequency) which you cross between the different areas that the different centers cover. For landing, it's the same thing in reverse order: center hands you off to tower as you approach the airport, and after you're on the runway, tower hands you off to ground (who again is up in the tower, but only talking to planes on the ground) for taxi instructions.
nunez 6y ago
> I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the recordings I've listened to. Tune into LGA or JFK on any given Thursday; examples for miles
qtplatypus 6y ago
I am pretty sure that ATC is trained to sound calm. I’ve been listening to ATC recordings at the worse the emergency is the more calm the controller is. I think it is deliberate to help the pilot concentrate and not panic.

BurningFrog 6y ago

Stakes are higher when you're on the plane...

bityard 6y ago
Negative. Pilots only ever have to worry about one plane. ATCs have to worry about all of them.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  But that one plane has you on it.
- mark-r 6y ago
  ATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident.
  - hnlmorg 6y ago
    You don't need to be physically sat on the plane to emphasise with the severity of the situation. It's not like ATCs are willing pilots to die. And sometimes not being able to physically control the actions of the pilots can add to the stress.
    - mark-r 6y ago
      I wasn't claiming that ATC isn't one of the most stressful jobs on the planet. Merely agreeing with GP that the pilot has more skin in the game.
      - hnlmorg 6y ago
        The point of the conversation was about which is more stressful. Obviously having "more skin in the game" would directly increase the stress levels but yourself and others who posted like you completely miss the point that the ATCs are there to ensure safe travel and they very much are invested in that mission too. Comments like "well they're not going to die so why would they lose their cool" are just harsh and entirely miss the point of why the ATC are there in the first place. The key reason for why ATC don't lose their cool has nothing to do with who is more stressed or has more "skin in the game" and everything to do with the fact that if ATC lose their cool then the pilot is more likely to die... and possibly other planes and their passengers and crew too. In order to save lives ATC have to keep their cool even when everyone else around them panics. That's the real crux of the matter.
        enneff 6y ago
        In addition to what you say here, most of the ATC job is about maintaining order and safety, while for a pilot there are many other factors (and accidents happen when pilots get distracted by those other factors). The ATC is constantly thinking about possible accidents, while the pilot has more opportunity to have their thoughts elsewhere.
        kaybe 6y ago
        The term I've heard is 'task saturation' and I absolutely love it (the term, not the situation). (The solution proposed is usually to pull some science staff from science into operation, which luckily didn't have to happen so far.)
    - rurp 6y ago
      I can relate to this from rock climbing. Typically one climber at a time leads while the other belays (manages the rope). The leader is the one at physical risk but the most scared I've felt has been belaying. Being the belayer means you don't have much control and are mostly just watching closely and hoping your buddy doesn't get hurt. Being in a scary lead situation forces you to concentrate which pushes a lot of the fear emotions aside. Worry and fear take a lot of energy, energy which often can't be spared in an emergency where you have some control over the situation.
  - dyingkneepad 6y ago
    They just need to forever live believing their mistake caused the death of 350 people?
    - danso 6y ago
      Would that fear of future shame be as primal as the fear of imminent death, at the moment of conflict?
      - Retric 6y ago
        Probably, people regularly place their own lives as a much lower priority than the group their part of. I assume most air traffic controllers get emotionally invested as their actively talking to the pilots involved.
      - enneff 6y ago
        I’d rather die than kill hundreds of people in error.
        mark-r 6y ago
        That may be true, but your brain reacts at a more primitive level in the moment.
        Retric 6y ago
        That really depends on the person and situation. Some people get really emotional, but it’s also common for people in highly stressful life or death situations to emotionally shut down and end up going through rote responses. This is dangerous because you effectively lose creativity and can easily get stuck in a loop repeatedly doing the same things. One example is WWII commanders would sometimes continue to bring ammunition to machine gun nests even when just adding it to large piles. It may have been the best option when they start, but they never revisit that choice. The same thing happens to pilots where people investigate a crash and find pilots keep doing the exact same thing that’s not working for several minutes without considering that perhaps some assumption they have is wrong. Finally, some people don’t seem to react much at all to such personal risks.
  - outworlder 6y ago
    > ATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident. ATC can have a larger stake than any single pilot. Consider a mid air collision scenario, for instance. They will handle more lives daily than a pilot. Don't dismiss it. ATC involved in incidents can suffer from severe PTSD.
- inopinatus 6y ago
  Yes, but it’s like the difference between the chicken and the pig at breakfast.
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    This comparison flew over my head easily at about 20,000 feet, anyone else? Can someone give me clearance to land this bird, 20L please.
    - saxonww 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig
    - robodale 6y ago
      Bringing the egg....versus being the bacon.
      - garmaine 6y ago
        It falls flat because people eat chicken for breakfast too..
        bewaretheirs 6y ago
        when used rhetorically it's usually with an explicit context of "bacon & eggs" or "ham & eggs"
        dvtrn 6y ago
        Wait but what if I’m eating oyakodon with some crumbled bacon on top? /kidding, I know this is an absurd stretch of the terms, appreciate all the explanations.
    - jlgaddis 6y ago
      There’s several variations due to varying languages, dialects, and such but I always heard what he’s referring to phrased like this: > ”The chicken is involved but the pig is committed.” That is, while both are needed to make breakfast, the pig has a bigger stake in the project. The chicken may be providing the eggs but the pig is being eaten!
- sneak 6y ago
  Pilots are solely responsible for the safety of the plane and the passengers, not ATC. ATC is an aid for the pilot in this responsibility.

nl 6y ago

> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA." The SR71 radio speed check was in LA too. I heard a Cessna ask for a readout of its ground speed. '90 knots Center replied. Moments later,a Twin Beech required the same. '120 knots' Center answered. We weren’t the only ones proud of our ground speed that day as almost instantly an F-18 smugly transmitted: 'Ah, Center, Dusty 52 requests ground speed readout.' There was a slight pause, then the response, '620 knots on the ground, Dusty.' As I was thinking to myself how ripe a situation this was, I heard a familiar click of a radio transmission coming from my back-seater. It was at that precise moment I realized Walt and I had become a real crew, for we were both thinking in unison. 'Center, Aspen 20, you got a ground speed readout for us?' There was a longer than normal pause 'Aspen, I show 1,942 knots.' No further inquiries were heard on that frequency. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-tells-story-his-famed-ground-speed-check-72136 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot...

sandworm101 6y ago
That story is often told but is generally considered apocryphal. There is too much wrong with it procedurally. It's funny, but not likely a conversation that actually happened.
- autisticcurio 6y ago
  Dont under estimate what the military get up to. The MK1 Lynx helicopter (Westland Lynx) didnt have a black box flight recorder, and as it had the world speed record, many pilots when entertaining new recruits would attempt to scare the wotsit out of them by flying over the mountain tops of Wales before nose diving the chopper towards the valley floor to see how fast they could get it to go. Noisy! On a par with flying with The Blades who are ex Red Arrow pilots.
- CPLX 6y ago
  What's the procedural problem with it? It's possibly a little too cute or maybe embellished, but there's nothing in it that sounds impossible or beyond plausibility. For reference I have a pilot's license.

bewaretheirs 6y ago

Not ATC but here's a classic viral recording of a frazzled ground controller herding cats at JFK airport in NY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0

defnotashton2 6y ago
Absolutely lost it about a minute in when he goes "you guys can't.. Just do that.."
alfalfasprout 6y ago
Well, ground controllers are notorious for being constantly annoyed... and I can't blame them. When they're on tower duty it's less common.
- quacked 6y ago
  Can you expand a little bit? I thought all ATC that talked to planes were in the towers.
  - Stratoscope 6y ago
    A tower controller at an airport talks to planes in the air as they arrive and depart. They are in the tower so they can see the planes visually, and may also have radar available. Ground control also works in the tower, after all they have to be able to see the airport taxiways. They may also have a separate ground radar. They are only talking to planes on the ground. At a busy airport, these will be separate individuals working each of these duties. At a less busy airport, or during quieter hours, the same controller may work both tower and ground simultaneously. There are also "center" controllers who work in the enroute traffic centers. They are not in towers and often not at any airport, as they talk with planes at altitude and work by radar and voice communication, not visual. For example, in a typical departure, you first talk to ground control for taxi clearance and instructions. When you are ready for departure (near but not yet on the runway!) ground will say "contact tower on 123.45" (or whatever frequency), and tower will clear you for takeoff. After you've taken off, tower may say "contact center on 124.56" (again, whatever the frequency is). While you're flying, each center controller will hand you off to a different center (and different frequency) which you cross between the different areas that the different centers cover. For landing, it's the same thing in reverse order: center hands you off to tower as you approach the airport, and after you're on the runway, tower hands you off to ground (who again is up in the tower, but only talking to planes on the ground) for taxi instructions.

nunez 6y ago

> I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the recordings I've listened to. Tune into LGA or JFK on any given Thursday; examples for miles

qtplatypus 6y ago

I am pretty sure that ATC is trained to sound calm. I’ve been listening to ATC recordings at the worse the emergency is the more calm the controller is. I think it is deliberate to help the pilot concentrate and not panic.