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ATCs have a reputation for never losing their cool and that really shines through here: “Tower, there’s a guy in a jetpack flying outside.” “Copy. To your lef
by elteto 6y ago
ATCs have a reputation for never losing their cool and that really shines through here:
“Tower, there’s a guy in a jetpack flying outside.”
“Copy. To your left or your right?”
- natcombs 6y agoThere are youtube videos of ATC recordings (with transcripts) of pilots losing their cool. You are right, I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the recordings I've listened to. This quote from the article made me smile: >> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA."
- BurningFrog 6y agoStakes are higher when you're on the plane...
- bityard 6y agoNegative. Pilots only ever have to worry about one plane. ATCs have to worry about all of them.
- dividedbyzero 6y agoBut that one plane has you on it.
- mark-r 6y agoATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident.
- hnlmorg 6y agoYou don't need to be physically sat on the plane to emphasise with the severity of the situation. It's not like ATCs are willing pilots to die. And sometimes not being able to physically control the actions of the pilots can add to the stress.
- mark-r 6y agoI wasn't claiming that ATC isn't one of the most stressful jobs on the planet. Merely agreeing with GP that the pilot has more skin in the game.
- hnlmorg 6y agoThe point of the conversation was about which is more stressful. Obviously having "more skin in the game" would directly increase the stress levels but yourself and others who posted like you completely miss the point that the ATCs are there to ensure safe travel and they very much are invested in that mission too. Comments like "well they're not going to die so why would they lose their cool" are just harsh and entirely miss the point of why the ATC are there in the first place. The key reason for why ATC don't lose their cool has nothing to do with who is more stressed or has more "skin in the game" and everything to do with the fact that if ATC lose their cool then the pilot is more likely to die... and possibly other planes and their passengers and crew too. In order to save lives ATC have to keep their cool even when everyone else around them panics. That's the real crux of the matter.
- enneff 6y agoIn addition to what you say here, most of the ATC job is about maintaining order and safety, while for a pilot there are many other factors (and accidents happen when pilots get distracted by those other factors). The ATC is constantly thinking about possible accidents, while the pilot has more opportunity to have their thoughts elsewhere.
- kaybe 6y agoThe term I've heard is 'task saturation' and I absolutely love it (the term, not the situation). (The solution proposed is usually to pull some science staff from science into operation, which luckily didn't have to happen so far.)
- rurp 6y agoI can relate to this from rock climbing. Typically one climber at a time leads while the other belays (manages the rope). The leader is the one at physical risk but the most scared I've felt has been belaying. Being the belayer means you don't have much control and are mostly just watching closely and hoping your buddy doesn't get hurt. Being in a scary lead situation forces you to concentrate which pushes a lot of the fear emotions aside. Worry and fear take a lot of energy, energy which often can't be spared in an emergency where you have some control over the situation.
- dyingkneepad 6y agoThey just need to forever live believing their mistake caused the death of 350 people?
- danso 6y agoWould that fear of future shame be as primal as the fear of imminent death, at the moment of conflict?
- Retric 6y agoProbably, people regularly place their own lives as a much lower priority than the group their part of. I assume most air traffic controllers get emotionally invested as their actively talking to the pilots involved.
- enneff 6y agoI’d rather die than kill hundreds of people in error.
- mark-r 6y agoThat may be true, but your brain reacts at a more primitive level in the moment.
- Retric 6y agoThat really depends on the person and situation. Some people get really emotional, but it’s also common for people in highly stressful life or death situations to emotionally shut down and end up going through rote responses. This is dangerous because you effectively lose creativity and can easily get stuck in a loop repeatedly doing the same things. One example is WWII commanders would sometimes continue to bring ammunition to machine gun nests even when just adding it to large piles. It may have been the best option when they start, but they never revisit that choice. The same thing happens to pilots where people investigate a crash and find pilots keep doing the exact same thing that’s not working for several minutes without considering that perhaps some assumption they have is wrong. Finally, some people don’t seem to react much at all to such personal risks.
- outworlder 6y ago> ATCs rarely have to worry about dying in the accident. ATC can have a larger stake than any single pilot. Consider a mid air collision scenario, for instance. They will handle more lives daily than a pilot. Don't dismiss it. ATC involved in incidents can suffer from severe PTSD.
- inopinatus 6y agoYes, but it’s like the difference between the chicken and the pig at breakfast.
- dvtrn 6y agoThis comparison flew over my head easily at about 20,000 feet, anyone else? Can someone give me clearance to land this bird, 20L please.
- saxonww 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicken_and_the_Pig
- robodale 6y agoBringing the egg....versus being the bacon.
- garmaine 6y agoIt falls flat because people eat chicken for breakfast too..
- bewaretheirs 6y agowhen used rhetorically it's usually with an explicit context of "bacon & eggs" or "ham & eggs"
- dvtrn 6y agoWait but what if I’m eating oyakodon with some crumbled bacon on top? /kidding, I know this is an absurd stretch of the terms, appreciate all the explanations.
- jlgaddis 6y agoThere’s several variations due to varying languages, dialects, and such but I always heard what he’s referring to phrased like this: > ”The chicken is involved but the pig is committed.” That is, while both are needed to make breakfast, the pig has a bigger stake in the project. The chicken may be providing the eggs but the pig is being eaten!
- sneak 6y agoPilots are solely responsible for the safety of the plane and the passengers, not ATC. ATC is an aid for the pilot in this responsibility.
- nl 6y ago> Another pilot chimed in: "Only in LA." The SR71 radio speed check was in LA too. I heard a Cessna ask for a readout of its ground speed. '90 knots Center replied. Moments later,a Twin Beech required the same. '120 knots' Center answered. We weren’t the only ones proud of our ground speed that day as almost instantly an F-18 smugly transmitted: 'Ah, Center, Dusty 52 requests ground speed readout.' There was a slight pause, then the response, '620 knots on the ground, Dusty.' As I was thinking to myself how ripe a situation this was, I heard a familiar click of a radio transmission coming from my back-seater. It was at that precise moment I realized Walt and I had become a real crew, for we were both thinking in unison. 'Center, Aspen 20, you got a ground speed readout for us?' There was a longer than normal pause 'Aspen, I show 1,942 knots.' No further inquiries were heard on that frequency. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-tells-story-his-famed-ground-speed-check-72136 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sr-71-blackbird-pilot...
- sandworm101 6y agoThat story is often told but is generally considered apocryphal. There is too much wrong with it procedurally. It's funny, but not likely a conversation that actually happened.
- autisticcurio 6y agoDont under estimate what the military get up to. The MK1 Lynx helicopter (Westland Lynx) didnt have a black box flight recorder, and as it had the world speed record, many pilots when entertaining new recruits would attempt to scare the wotsit out of them by flying over the mountain tops of Wales before nose diving the chopper towards the valley floor to see how fast they could get it to go. Noisy! On a par with flying with The Blades who are ex Red Arrow pilots.
- CPLX 6y agoWhat's the procedural problem with it? It's possibly a little too cute or maybe embellished, but there's nothing in it that sounds impossible or beyond plausibility. For reference I have a pilot's license.
- bewaretheirs 6y agoNot ATC but here's a classic viral recording of a frazzled ground controller herding cats at JFK airport in NY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0
- defnotashton2 6y agoAbsolutely lost it about a minute in when he goes "you guys can't.. Just do that.."
- alfalfasprout 6y agoWell, ground controllers are notorious for being constantly annoyed... and I can't blame them. When they're on tower duty it's less common.
- quacked 6y agoCan you expand a little bit? I thought all ATC that talked to planes were in the towers.
- Stratoscope 6y agoA tower controller at an airport talks to planes in the air as they arrive and depart. They are in the tower so they can see the planes visually, and may also have radar available. Ground control also works in the tower, after all they have to be able to see the airport taxiways. They may also have a separate ground radar. They are only talking to planes on the ground. At a busy airport, these will be separate individuals working each of these duties. At a less busy airport, or during quieter hours, the same controller may work both tower and ground simultaneously. There are also "center" controllers who work in the enroute traffic centers. They are not in towers and often not at any airport, as they talk with planes at altitude and work by radar and voice communication, not visual. For example, in a typical departure, you first talk to ground control for taxi clearance and instructions. When you are ready for departure (near but not yet on the runway!) ground will say "contact tower on 123.45" (or whatever frequency), and tower will clear you for takeoff. After you've taken off, tower may say "contact center on 124.56" (again, whatever the frequency is). While you're flying, each center controller will hand you off to a different center (and different frequency) which you cross between the different areas that the different centers cover. For landing, it's the same thing in reverse order: center hands you off to tower as you approach the airport, and after you're on the runway, tower hands you off to ground (who again is up in the tower, but only talking to planes on the ground) for taxi instructions.
- nunez 6y ago> I don't think any ATC lost their cool in any of the recordings I've listened to. Tune into LGA or JFK on any given Thursday; examples for miles
- qtplatypus 6y agoI am pretty sure that ATC is trained to sound calm. I’ve been listening to ATC recordings at the worse the emergency is the more calm the controller is. I think it is deliberate to help the pilot concentrate and not panic.
- sharkweek 6y agoI listened to the audio book of “The Only Plane in the Sky” (do recommend), and they played real recordings of ATCs on 9/11 as the planes were hitting buildings. It was surreal listening to them talk about the catastrophe but all while maintaining a total sense of calm.
- abnry 6y agoIt is quite admirable. I respect someone able to communicate effectively in a high stakes situation.
- inopinatus 6y agoI recommend listening to the flight director loops from the Apollo missions. There are thousands of recorded hours available (various places, but try lunarmodule5’s playlists on Youtube, or https://apolloinrealtime.org/ https://apolloinrealtime.org/ for a museum exhibit style) - including practically the entirety of missions 8 to 13, and most especially try the notorious manual burn of 13 during which everyone sounds like they’re discussing where to have lunch, not undertaking an extraordinarily difficult and dangerous manoeuvre in a crippled spacecraft. Sometimes I put them on as working background audio, it’s tremendously soothing.
- WorkLobster 6y ago"Ok, let's keep the chatter down". I've always loved Kranz'(?) comment even more than the moment of first contact itself. As if to say "Stop cashing out on one historic achievement and work with us to make many more".
- CalChris 6y ago"1202" Which translates as The guidance computer just crashed. https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-11-mission-out-of-control/ https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-11-mission-out-of-control...
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y agohttps://somafm.com/missioncontrol https://somafm.com/missioncontrol
- golergka 6y agoJust in case someone on HN still haven't read the famous SR-71 speed check story: https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blackbird-speed-check-story https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blac...
- badRNG 6y agoThis is truly one of my favorite aviation stories of all time and reread it anytime it gets linked here. Not sure why you are downvoted, it's the most relevant and humorous explanation of the calm, professional ATC "Houston Center" voice out there.
- gambiting 6y agoI haven't downvoted it personally, because I would really really really love it to be true - but it's been "debunked"(if you can call it that). I suspect some of it is true - but not exactly as told. https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8x5ndw/til_when_the_sr71_was_retired_in_1990_it_went/e21c0jt/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/8x5ndw/til_wh...
- mbreese 6y agoThis is one of those cases where I try not to let the facts get in the way of a good story...
- iso1210 6y agoSee also the lighthouse vs aircraft carrier story (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...)
- tzs 6y ago> I used to be a controller at Los Angeles Center in the 90's, and worked Aspen SR-71's (and later under the NASA callsign when they flew them out of Edwards AFB). They could hear ATC but not other aircraft, because civilian aircraft are on VHF frequencies, military on UHF, and anybody above 60,000 feet (like the SR-71's) were on a separate, center-wide UHF frequency so they wouldn't have to switch frequencies constantly. So the SR-71 and F-18 pilots couldn't have heard those other aircraft requesting groundspeed, or heard each other for that matter. Wait...military planes only have a single radio receiver? Military spy planes only have a single radio receiver?
- martinflack 6y agoIncidentally, do pilots say left and right? They don't have a special word (port / starboard) like naval vessels?
- sandworm101 6y agoYes. They use left/right. Port/starboard is useful when you have a crew of people running around doing jobs aboard a three-dimensional ship. Pilots are never more than two people sitting in fixed seats facing forwards. It is a much more linear environment than a ship.
- adrianmonk 6y agoMore linear does make sense. "Full astern" is a thing for ships but not planes. But it makes me wonder about helicopter pilots. Do they say left and right?
- enneff 6y agoYes.
- projektfu 6y agoYep, left, right, up, down, ahead, behind. Although in reference to the parts of the plane you say forward and aft.
- amarshall 6y agoPilots tend to not be oriented in any direction other than forward, unlike those aboard a boat who are more likely to be facing all manner of direction and an unambiguous term is needed.
- GuB-42 6y agoYes, pilots say left/right, although it is more common to use clock positions for that. For example "traffic 3 o'clock" means there is someone on you right. Port/starboard is not used in aviation and I don't know of any equivalent besides left/right.
- jimktrains2 6y agoListening to the atc recording of Southwest 1380 incident, the pilot goes "we have an engine failure and I'm told a passenger has been sucked out" there's a pause and ATC goes, with some shock in his voice, "what?" Before the pilot responds, he quickly recovers and goes "it's not important, which runway would you like" and carries on as normal.
- smachiz 6y agoAmazing professionalism - and the whole thing is worth a listen to, but there wasn't any shock - he didn't even mention it, just presumably updated the medical team he was sending to the runway. https://youtu.be/FkVTdvcghHc?t=377 https://youtu.be/FkVTdvcghHc?t=377
- jimktrains2 6y agohttps://youtu.be/cnSizWZVyD4?t=387 https://youtu.be/cnSizWZVyD4?t=387 at 6:50ish in this one at responds. "You said there is a hole and someone went out? It doesn't matter, we'll work it out. The airport is just off your right." I guess it's not as "shocked" or "in disbelief" as I remember it being the first time I listened to it. (I vividly remember the first time I heard this, hence why I had to go look for it or figure out what I was remembering.)
- smachiz 6y agostill - apologies for suggesting you misremembered, I didn't realize my version was abridged! Thanks for the link with more of the audio - there's definitely at least a tinge of disbelief!
- alfalfasprout 6y agoI mean, it's rather moot at that point right?
- jimktrains2 6y agoA pilots job is to "aviate, navigate, and communicate", in that order. It's improper for ATC, especially in an emergency, to be asking them for irrelevant details as it's forcing the pilot to consider the question, which takes mental energy away from aviating and navigating.
- Rochus 6y agoThis has less to do with coolness than with the fact that the controller will most likely not be able to see the guy on the ASR, and I would assume that the guy has no transponder either. You can only control the airspace if you can see who/what is around.
- shadowgovt 6y agoI imagine the radar signature of a wingsuiter is pretty small, even if they have an exhaust-belching rocket strapped on the thing. How well do those show up on radar?
- sandworm101 6y agoOn a civilian radar, they don't. Without a transponder the tower won't see you on their screens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar
- Rochus 6y agoDepending on the angle of incidence relative to the radar, the cross-section can be quite large. But the resolution of the radar is almost certainly not sufficient to see the small object near the aircraft.
- teleforce 6y agoAll of the conventional radar systems installed at airports are blind to this small human jetpack due to their limited resolution. The newer type of radar for detecting debris exist at some airports but because of their main purpose is to monitor debris on the runaway it is only for short distance and not pointed to the sky.
- Rochus 6y agoThe main purpose of the PSR is to detect potentially dangerous flying objects which have no transponders. The PSR we tested were able to also detect e.g. parachutes and paragliders. I would assume that the radar cross section of the winged jetpack is large enough for detection by current PSR.
- snapetom 6y agoThere's probably recordings publicly available somewhere, but I thought the same thing when listening to the Columbia disaster. It was the first space disaster play out in real time over the internet. NASA streamed mission control communication on their site. We got everything unfiltered. The nation just lost a pride and joy, and mission control was incredibly calm and professional throughout. I was constantly hitting refresh on Slashdot, and then someone posted, "NASA just updated the mission status page to 'Lost'." It was just so weird looking at those words on screen.
- hinkley 6y agoI was still in school, and science class happened to line up with the [Challenger] disaster. We had a substitute so I was used to that class being Bedlam anyway. I walked in and didn't believe people when they said what happened. (I had a similar reaction when my spouse woke me up at the crack of dawn by announcing "They knocked down the Towers!") Then the sub rolls in a TV cart. Oh. The other thing that struck me was that nobody editorialized what they were seeing. I knew that the twin smoke trails spiraling off to the sites were the SRBs, three seconds into the video. There was nothing else they could possibly be. But the announcer was very clear to say they might be the SRBs but we don't know anything yet. As an adult having sat through many lower-stakes RCA and production outage situations, I can respect their reserve. As a child it just made me even more upset.
- michaelcampbell 6y agoI've got a few years on you evidently; I was in a college mechanical drafting class that had just let out after the disaster. As it was at UCF east of Orlando, I had to but look East and see it.
- ericcumbee 6y agoColumbia happened on a Saturday.
- mcguire 6y ago
- asdfman123 6y agoI love the incredulity in the pilot's voice as he says jetpack. Someone please hurry up and make these sound bytes into an EDM song, thanks.
- ianmcgowan 6y agoSounds like the perfect thing for Public Service Broadcasting - love Go! by them which has NASA mission control as the main vocal..
- greyhair 6y agoMy father was a corporate pilot. Occasionally he had flights alone where he was picking up or delivering materials or light freight. He used to occasionally pull me out of school as a kid if he was flying alone, and I would ride in the right seat. Once, flying from Western NY to Peoria Illinois, the tower came on to ask if he could find a pilot in the area, single engine, that was lost and in a slight panic. They new where he was, he had his transponder on, but were having difficulty getting him to follow directions. We were flying a light twin turboprop (Mitsubishi MU2-B) which can easily drop to low air speeds. We found the guy, and he followed off our left wing, so my father could keep an eye on him, and we took him to where he had clear visual of his destination airport. We then just continued on our way. I had a headset on, and the flight controllers were so calm talking to that other pilot. It was like listening to Fred Rogers. I think my father only said a dozen words the whole time, acknowledging the request, declaring visual, and declaring visual on the airport. We just continued our trip, but we did hear the other pilot declare base and final.
- medion 6y agoI was surprised by the use left/right for comms and not port/starboard - is that normal in the aircraft space? I guess it must be.
- lawrenceduk 6y agoPort and starboard isn’t used on the radio at all. ATC will say things like “traffic 2 o’clock, left to right”. The words left and right are fairly unmistakable and everyone understands them. Doesn’t have to be complicated!