16 ms·

You aren't contributing honestly. The police systems work, but they have problems. And again, don't view Canadian policing with an American lens. Toronto, for

by jbob2000 6y ago

You aren't contributing honestly. The police systems work, but they have problems. And again, don't view Canadian policing with an American lens. Toronto, for example, has an independent division of police called the SIU, Special Investigations Unit. Any time an officer is involved in a violent altercation, the SIU is onsite and investigating. Not perfect, but better. They also have a mental health unit that responds to non-violent calls where people are in distress. Again, not perfect, but better. Toronto and Vancouver both operate safe injection sites. Toronto recently put up hundreds of homeless people into vacant apartments to get them off the street. All this to say, I don't see these programs in the US. You guys aren't even trying to improve your Police. Don't view canadian police with an American lens.

refurb 6y ago
As someone who experience with both Canadian and US police, I think the differences are less than they appear. Especially when you take into account Canada has 1/10th the US population (so you’d expect 1/10th of the incidents). I’ve had several friends who have been tuned up by either the RCMP or provincial police. Sure, you’re less likely to get shot than in the US, but my anecdotal experience suggests there are plenty of bad apples in Canada. Hell, they are still trying to clean up the RCMP. You see some pretty egregious behavior in the small town detatchments.
manbackharry 6y ago
I'm not sure you want to look at the SIU as some paragon of justice holding police to account. The SIU is not a division of the police, being under the purview of the provincial government, but it sure is staffed by a whole lot of former police (nearly all white too) who seem to have no problem finding other police innocent of any wrongdoing. The most recent stats I read were that 97% of cases are cleared without charges and you can count on 1 hand the number of cops who actually went to jail over their 30 year existence. Their "mental health unit" didn't do much to save Regis Korchinski-Paquet, and the feckless SIU wasn't much better in investigating. They also don't deserve any credit for the current investigation of Ejaz Choudry's murder, another person with mental health problems being "assisted" by police while in distress. Absolutely police systems work, as long as you're not on the side that's being policed.
gentleman11 6y ago
Just because it’s not the USA doesn’t mean it will turn out rosy. It does a lot of harm when everybody assumes that “bad things won’t happen here, so in this case it’s fine”
klyrs 6y ago
Nope, they're not the same, but I've lived on both sides of the border and see a high degree of similarity. Out West, we don't have much of a black population. The issues with policing here are stark when comparing indigenous to non-indigenous populations. We had an analogous incident to Trayvon Martin a few years back; white dude murdered an indigenous dude, was tried by at white jury and got off scott free: it's not just the police, it's also the broader culture that has seen indigenous peoples as vermin since first contact. We have police shooting to kill instead of de-escalating. Even in Vancouver, I see cops treating white arrestees with dignity and respect whereas I see them pinning black and indigenous people to the ground as their first move -- almost every single interaction that I've witnessed. Toronto had a program very similar, and with similar impact, to NYC's stop and frisk program. White criminals go largely unmolested, while even middle class black and indigenous people get harrassed on the regular. Militarized cops carrying long guns and wearing body armor show up to nonviolent oil protests and do what they can to escalate the scene. Liberals were outspoken against declaring nonviolent oil protests an act of terrorism until they got in power, and then the story was "we don't want to take this enforcement tool from the police." Generational trauma from the residential schools, a "soft genocide," remains unaddressed to this day and white citizenry doesn't seem to understand why folks want to topple statues of John Macdonald. The medical system is still forcably sterilizing and removing children from indigenous women. The main difference is that the genocide in canada was largely effective; the black population in the US wasn't eradicated to the same degree, so the racialized politics aren't as visible here. We need to remove a bunch of duties from police, and hand them to social services, mental health care workers, and unarmed bylaws enforcement. Just like the US. That will free the police up to investigate actual crimes, and work to improve the lives of people who are shat on by our society.
- core-questions 6y ago
  > Even in Vancouver, I see cops treating white arrestees with dignity and respect whereas I see them pinning black and indigenous people to the ground as their first move -- almost every single interaction that I've witnessed. This is nothing but an anecdote; you don't know the whole situation in these cases, you're probably just walking by, you don't know what happened beforehand, you don't know what level of threat these individuals posed. It's also almost certainly a case of bias confirmation, you're paying attention to the demographics during an arrest and chalking up datapoints when you see what you're looking for. Are you everywhere in the city? Do you have a representative sample of policing? Not even close. You're just looking to see this happening, and nowhere in your mind does it possibly occur to you that these perps might have been disrespectful, might have fought back, might be "known to police" already as a troublemaker that's causing yet again another incident despite living in a city with nothing but programs and handouts and tolerance for the antics of the homeless. > nonviolent oil protests Illegal trespassing, in many cases, and the show of force is to make it clear that there will be no violence, because none will be tolerated. If anything, it should help make it far more clear cut that there cannot be any pushback on these issues. It doesn't matter what your opinion is on the subject, it matters what has been decided by the government, and it's probably better that a protestor realizes that they have no hope of violent resistance rather than giving it a try. > The main difference is that the genocide in canada was largely effective Is this really how my fellow citizens view their own history? What an incredibly biased, anti-White narrative. No wonder folks like you want to deconstruct everything that is well-built, predictable, and good about our nation as we have it today: you view it all as an evil inheritance that was stolen, rather than a beautiful workable system hewn out of cruel nature. > We need to remove a bunch of duties from police, and hand them to social services, mental health care workers, and unarmed bylaws enforcement. I'll give you this: it might actually have a chance of working here, to some extent, because of how nonviolent people generally are and because we don't have a massively armed population. Still, there will be incidents where these unarmed support officers are going to be physically overpowered, abused, beaten, even raped; there will be incidents when people get away who should be caught; and when it happens, we'll all just have to remember that that wouldn't have happened if sufficient force had been present. > work to improve the lives of people who are shat on by our society. One of the big dichotomies between people like you and people like me is that it never seems like your side is willing to admit to the large numbers of people in this position who themselves shit on society rather than the other way around. Again, we have as many opportunities for a leg up here as there have ever been, anywhere in the world.

refurb 6y ago

As someone who experience with both Canadian and US police, I think the differences are less than they appear. Especially when you take into account Canada has 1/10th the US population (so you’d expect 1/10th of the incidents). I’ve had several friends who have been tuned up by either the RCMP or provincial police. Sure, you’re less likely to get shot than in the US, but my anecdotal experience suggests there are plenty of bad apples in Canada. Hell, they are still trying to clean up the RCMP. You see some pretty egregious behavior in the small town detatchments.

manbackharry 6y ago

I'm not sure you want to look at the SIU as some paragon of justice holding police to account. The SIU is not a division of the police, being under the purview of the provincial government, but it sure is staffed by a whole lot of former police (nearly all white too) who seem to have no problem finding other police innocent of any wrongdoing. The most recent stats I read were that 97% of cases are cleared without charges and you can count on 1 hand the number of cops who actually went to jail over their 30 year existence. Their "mental health unit" didn't do much to save Regis Korchinski-Paquet, and the feckless SIU wasn't much better in investigating. They also don't deserve any credit for the current investigation of Ejaz Choudry's murder, another person with mental health problems being "assisted" by police while in distress. Absolutely police systems work, as long as you're not on the side that's being policed.

gentleman11 6y ago

Just because it’s not the USA doesn’t mean it will turn out rosy. It does a lot of harm when everybody assumes that “bad things won’t happen here, so in this case it’s fine”

klyrs 6y ago

Nope, they're not the same, but I've lived on both sides of the border and see a high degree of similarity. Out West, we don't have much of a black population. The issues with policing here are stark when comparing indigenous to non-indigenous populations. We had an analogous incident to Trayvon Martin a few years back; white dude murdered an indigenous dude, was tried by at white jury and got off scott free: it's not just the police, it's also the broader culture that has seen indigenous peoples as vermin since first contact. We have police shooting to kill instead of de-escalating. Even in Vancouver, I see cops treating white arrestees with dignity and respect whereas I see them pinning black and indigenous people to the ground as their first move -- almost every single interaction that I've witnessed. Toronto had a program very similar, and with similar impact, to NYC's stop and frisk program. White criminals go largely unmolested, while even middle class black and indigenous people get harrassed on the regular. Militarized cops carrying long guns and wearing body armor show up to nonviolent oil protests and do what they can to escalate the scene. Liberals were outspoken against declaring nonviolent oil protests an act of terrorism until they got in power, and then the story was "we don't want to take this enforcement tool from the police." Generational trauma from the residential schools, a "soft genocide," remains unaddressed to this day and white citizenry doesn't seem to understand why folks want to topple statues of John Macdonald. The medical system is still forcably sterilizing and removing children from indigenous women. The main difference is that the genocide in canada was largely effective; the black population in the US wasn't eradicated to the same degree, so the racialized politics aren't as visible here. We need to remove a bunch of duties from police, and hand them to social services, mental health care workers, and unarmed bylaws enforcement. Just like the US. That will free the police up to investigate actual crimes, and work to improve the lives of people who are shat on by our society.

core-questions 6y ago
> Even in Vancouver, I see cops treating white arrestees with dignity and respect whereas I see them pinning black and indigenous people to the ground as their first move -- almost every single interaction that I've witnessed. This is nothing but an anecdote; you don't know the whole situation in these cases, you're probably just walking by, you don't know what happened beforehand, you don't know what level of threat these individuals posed. It's also almost certainly a case of bias confirmation, you're paying attention to the demographics during an arrest and chalking up datapoints when you see what you're looking for. Are you everywhere in the city? Do you have a representative sample of policing? Not even close. You're just looking to see this happening, and nowhere in your mind does it possibly occur to you that these perps might have been disrespectful, might have fought back, might be "known to police" already as a troublemaker that's causing yet again another incident despite living in a city with nothing but programs and handouts and tolerance for the antics of the homeless. > nonviolent oil protests Illegal trespassing, in many cases, and the show of force is to make it clear that there will be no violence, because none will be tolerated. If anything, it should help make it far more clear cut that there cannot be any pushback on these issues. It doesn't matter what your opinion is on the subject, it matters what has been decided by the government, and it's probably better that a protestor realizes that they have no hope of violent resistance rather than giving it a try. > The main difference is that the genocide in canada was largely effective Is this really how my fellow citizens view their own history? What an incredibly biased, anti-White narrative. No wonder folks like you want to deconstruct everything that is well-built, predictable, and good about our nation as we have it today: you view it all as an evil inheritance that was stolen, rather than a beautiful workable system hewn out of cruel nature. > We need to remove a bunch of duties from police, and hand them to social services, mental health care workers, and unarmed bylaws enforcement. I'll give you this: it might actually have a chance of working here, to some extent, because of how nonviolent people generally are and because we don't have a massively armed population. Still, there will be incidents where these unarmed support officers are going to be physically overpowered, abused, beaten, even raped; there will be incidents when people get away who should be caught; and when it happens, we'll all just have to remember that that wouldn't have happened if sufficient force had been present. > work to improve the lives of people who are shat on by our society. One of the big dichotomies between people like you and people like me is that it never seems like your side is willing to admit to the large numbers of people in this position who themselves shit on society rather than the other way around. Again, we have as many opportunities for a leg up here as there have ever been, anywhere in the world.