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Many/most flats in those cute old European cities have windows directly over a street. You can have cars making noise and pollution literally within 5-10 meters

Many/most flats in those cute old European cities have windows directly over a street. You can have cars making noise and pollution literally within 5-10 meters of your window. This is bad for physical and mental health. Soviet-style housing planning is a good middle ground. There, most flats can enjoy silence (you only hear cars that belong to your neighbors and no passer-bys) and still the districts are planned for walkability and public transport.

donjoe 6y ago
This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments. The streets back then were also a social aspect of life where we met people and could interact with each other. Then came a time we handed over streets to parking spots and some folks driving at 50km/h and faster. Social aspects have been gone. We should not build our apts for cars and align to them. If cars are loud and noisy and destroy our social life, we should focus on solving the car problem and not trying to build around cars.
- cyberdrunk 6y ago
  > This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments Not the case in most of Europe IMO. The apartment buildings were built along very narrow streets to either fit inside perimeter of city walls or (later) because real estate was expensive. Due to narrowness of roads, these apartments are not very well lit and are depressing (you can't see the sky through the window, only the building across the street). Here in Poland, it basically wasn't until central urban planning by communists until we had cities which are livable, car or no car. This is reflected in real estate pries, where apartments in the old, historic buildings can be cheaper (despite often being right in the city centers) than in the (much denser) soviet conglomerates. > Then came a time we handed over streets to parking spots and some folks driving at 50km/h and faster. Social aspects have been gone. Even cars at 30 km/h make plenty of noise (when accelerating to that speed). I'm not sure what you mean by "social aspects" of streets?
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    > what you mean by "social aspects" of streets? well the '70s blocks in Poland do have quite some shared greenery, at least the southern part were I've been extensively, but I saw them also up north, even in the outskirts of 'special case' cities that have had their historical centers preserved or restored like Gdansk [1] or Torun [2] - that's what planner can do to encourages a local and social aspect to the local neighbors but still it doesn't solve working places interconnection in a way that makes walking nor public transit satisfactory. 1 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danzica,+Polonia/@54.3415399,18.62237,666m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x46fd731c14d4fa6f:0x9bb9fbf163b7be8d!8m2!3d54.3520252!4d18.6466384 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danzica,+Polonia/@54.34153... 2 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toru%C5%84,+Polonia/@53.025785,18.6587996,822m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x470334e1d994ec19:0x744a729a586a89c4!8m2!3d53.0137902!4d18.5984437 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toru%C5%84,+Polonia/@53.02...
    - LoSboccacc 6y ago
      lol somehow someone with an axe to grind has been following me and downvoting all the posts I make as if that proves anything. interestingly even factual, sourced post like this were victims to trolling; I though there were protections to anti social behaviour in place, but alas, here we are.
  - donjoe 6y ago
    Social aspects in the sense of that we nowadays use them for cars only. Back in the days people traded on streets, had cafes and social interactions. Kids could play football and learn how to cycle. That's all used up by cars with all the externalities that comes with it such as dirt, noise, wasted space, deaths by accidents and air pollution. Not to forget: streets were used that way until ~80 years ago. We just can't remember them any different any more.
    - cyberdrunk 6y ago
      > Social aspects in the sense of that we nowadays use them for cars only. Back in the days people traded on streets, had cafes and social interactions. Kids could play football and learn how to cycle. I still see some of that in my dense city with car traffic. Obviously, this now happens on the sidewalk and not on the street itself. The major difference is kids not playing on the more major streets.

donjoe 6y ago

This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments. The streets back then were also a social aspect of life where we met people and could interact with each other. Then came a time we handed over streets to parking spots and some folks driving at 50km/h and faster. Social aspects have been gone. We should not build our apts for cars and align to them. If cars are loud and noisy and destroy our social life, we should focus on solving the car problem and not trying to build around cars.

cyberdrunk 6y ago
> This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments Not the case in most of Europe IMO. The apartment buildings were built along very narrow streets to either fit inside perimeter of city walls or (later) because real estate was expensive. Due to narrowness of roads, these apartments are not very well lit and are depressing (you can't see the sky through the window, only the building across the street). Here in Poland, it basically wasn't until central urban planning by communists until we had cities which are livable, car or no car. This is reflected in real estate pries, where apartments in the old, historic buildings can be cheaper (despite often being right in the city centers) than in the (much denser) soviet conglomerates. > Then came a time we handed over streets to parking spots and some folks driving at 50km/h and faster. Social aspects have been gone. Even cars at 30 km/h make plenty of noise (when accelerating to that speed). I'm not sure what you mean by "social aspects" of streets?
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  > what you mean by "social aspects" of streets? well the '70s blocks in Poland do have quite some shared greenery, at least the southern part were I've been extensively, but I saw them also up north, even in the outskirts of 'special case' cities that have had their historical centers preserved or restored like Gdansk [1] or Torun [2] - that's what planner can do to encourages a local and social aspect to the local neighbors but still it doesn't solve working places interconnection in a way that makes walking nor public transit satisfactory. 1 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danzica,+Polonia/@54.3415399,18.62237,666m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x46fd731c14d4fa6f:0x9bb9fbf163b7be8d!8m2!3d54.3520252!4d18.6466384 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danzica,+Polonia/@54.34153... 2 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toru%C5%84,+Polonia/@53.025785,18.6587996,822m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x470334e1d994ec19:0x744a729a586a89c4!8m2!3d53.0137902!4d18.5984437 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toru%C5%84,+Polonia/@53.02...
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    lol somehow someone with an axe to grind has been following me and downvoting all the posts I make as if that proves anything. interestingly even factual, sourced post like this were victims to trolling; I though there were protections to anti social behaviour in place, but alas, here we are.
- donjoe 6y ago
  Social aspects in the sense of that we nowadays use them for cars only. Back in the days people traded on streets, had cafes and social interactions. Kids could play football and learn how to cycle. That's all used up by cars with all the externalities that comes with it such as dirt, noise, wasted space, deaths by accidents and air pollution. Not to forget: streets were used that way until ~80 years ago. We just can't remember them any different any more.
  - cyberdrunk 6y ago
    > Social aspects in the sense of that we nowadays use them for cars only. Back in the days people traded on streets, had cafes and social interactions. Kids could play football and learn how to cycle. I still see some of that in my dense city with car traffic. Obviously, this now happens on the sidewalk and not on the street itself. The major difference is kids not playing on the more major streets.