7 ms·

I added a whole bunch of features a year or two ago, including a wide range of new goods (cochineal, indigo, etc.) and the repugnant feature of slavery (repugna

I added a whole bunch of features a year or two ago, including a wide range of new goods (cochineal, indigo, etc.) and the repugnant feature of slavery (repugnant, but I would think it would be very tempting to a player economically), but I foolishly forgot to push it off my old computer. I always wonder if such content (and no functional improvements) would even be welcome in a pull request, not to mention how controversial adding slavery to a game might be.

smabie 6y ago
Some sort of slavery tech is in many 4x games, I believe.
ajuc 6y ago
You can genocide whole cultures in games but you can't enslave them because that would be insensitive :)
- totetsu 6y ago
  Extinct peoples dont tend to raise objections. https://youtu.be/N8mjm5ADN-c https://youtu.be/N8mjm5ADN-c
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Or worse - have sex scenes. Anybody remembers the GTA hot coffee mod? It was a mini sex game, added by a mod, or rather, unlocked by the mod. And it caused an outrage. Because, the whole game was about killing and stealing and exploiting. No problem. Just violence. But having sexual content? No way. That goes too far.
- riffraff 6y ago
  that's really not unusual, see the very very common trope in movies where murdering a ton of people is perfectly fine, torturing them is ok, but the moment the evil person tries to _rape_ someone then it becomes unbearable[0]. Things are not compared rationally and emotionally on the same level. [0] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKi...
renewiltord 6y ago
How interesting! Always curious to hear about the "modding" (really forking) culture in open source games. It's so attractive to edit games to be like you want. One of the first ones I ever modified was the game XEvil and I suspect the dopamine hit from being able to edit and recompile to see a difference has kept me going a few decades into this field. I like the idea of morally ugly things in games, but often they minmax away or are forced on you by great difficulty. For instance, in Bioshock it's optimal to be nice to the little girls. The bad option is minmaxed away. And in Frostpunk it's kind of forced on you since the tech tree is all authoritarianism. I wonder what it would be like if in the same game I could end up either the North or the South and still put up a good fight.
- ajuc 6y ago
  > I like the idea of morally ugly things in games, but often they minmax away or are forced on you by great difficulty I like how Witcher series does it. You have established character presented with hard dillemas with no obvious good option, implied bad side effects, and the actual effects are only seen after hours of gameplay, so you can't just reload. And it's not "pat the puppy or kill it", because the character wouldn't kill the puppy and it makes no sense, it's "feed this puppy or save the food because you have long way to the next city". The fact that you don't have perfect knowledge+delayed effects make all the difference. But it's best suited for story-heavy games like RPGs, I'm not sure it would work as well in mechanics-based game.
- mrighele 6y ago
  > And in Frostpunk it's kind of forced on you since the tech tree is all authoritarianism. If you're talking about the Book of Laws, you get different endings depending on what laws you enable like "we didn't cross the line" or "we went too far", or something like that. I think also that depending on the scenario you can avoid most of the "ugly laws", with the notable exception of child labour, because it gives a boost in manpower at the beginning of the game, and that makes really a difference. If you prefer, choosing a single ugly law lets me avoid all the others.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
galfarragem 6y ago
Colonization is one of the best/most complete games ever made. I look at it as a very complex board game that would be very hard to play without the help of a computer. So the idea of a remake, taking advantage of the open source age, has a lot of potential: improved pixel graphics, improved mechanics and strategy (e.g. Slavery - since the game already mentions the instrumentalization of criminals and natives during colonization there is no reason to not mention slavery. It's part of our History and you cannot erase it. Censuring this is distopic). By the other hand - to facilitate contributions - using Java is not optimal but it certainly made sense at the time, this is already an old project.
- an_opabinia 6y ago
  I patched FreeCol multiplayer in 2014. I was not a Java developer. But it was instrumental to how easy it was to fix this tricky bug in an hour. On the contrary many open source games use Java (or CSharp) and it helps them be moddable, discoverable and testable in ways that JavaScript would not give you for free. Additionally, the web ecosystem is built around a marketplace of external services and opaque, bundled offerings, which makes people not paying those bills (ie modders, open source contributors) second class citizens in the development process.
pelliphant 6y ago
from an european perspective: removing slavery as a central component of the colonization of america seems like revisionism.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  why from an European perspective? And not anyone else's? The game did feature a form of slavery with indentured servants from Europe, many of those ended up being literal slaves with no end to their contract once in the new World. Regarding the issue of slavery, Colonization would have been criticized both ways: had they included it, they would have seen as condoning it. Removing it makes it seem like they did not care or are trying to hide it from History. There's no good solution that will satisfy everyone.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "There's no good solution that will satisfy everyone. " That is allmost never the case. It is important to keep this in mind. I for once want a historical game to be trul historical. As close to the facts as possible.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Do you want a story telling device game where no matter what you do, you repeat history exactly as it’s recorded by historians? Or do you want for example slavery to be an option so you can immediately avoid it? In the latter example, of course the game wouldn’t be historic and the authors of the game would need to build in these non-canonical alternatives and fictions. I don’t disagree with you wholly because I think a video game that didn’t have slavery as a subject but did educate about it in this kind of way would be very effective at for example teaching kids and adults about things like Juneteenth or the only coup to ever happen on US soil. But unless the game is on rails, the historical facts will always be just one of the possible choices.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        "But unless the game is on rails, the historical facts will always be just one of the possible choices" Sure. Thats why I am talking about the general setting. I start at a time, which I like to be somewhat historical correct. And from there it is free playing. Otherwise those strategygames would not be possible. So in the example of collonization, there definitely should be the option of slaves, as it was done. But there should also be the option of avoiding it. Basically, playing nice, without the game mechanics pushing you to be a slaver. (I do not remember how it was actually implemented) But I would not mind the game to be harder playing it nice. Which is probably more to historical truth.
tuesdayrain 6y ago
Why is adding slavery so controversial, yet almost no one thinks twice about adding murder to their game?

smabie 6y ago

Some sort of slavery tech is in many 4x games, I believe.

ajuc 6y ago

You can genocide whole cultures in games but you can't enslave them because that would be insensitive :)

totetsu 6y ago
Extinct peoples dont tend to raise objections. https://youtu.be/N8mjm5ADN-c https://youtu.be/N8mjm5ADN-c
hutzlibu 6y ago
Or worse - have sex scenes. Anybody remembers the GTA hot coffee mod? It was a mini sex game, added by a mod, or rather, unlocked by the mod. And it caused an outrage. Because, the whole game was about killing and stealing and exploiting. No problem. Just violence. But having sexual content? No way. That goes too far.
riffraff 6y ago
that's really not unusual, see the very very common trope in movies where murdering a ton of people is perfectly fine, torturing them is ok, but the moment the evil person tries to _rape_ someone then it becomes unbearable[0]. Things are not compared rationally and emotionally on the same level. [0] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKi...

renewiltord 6y ago

How interesting! Always curious to hear about the "modding" (really forking) culture in open source games. It's so attractive to edit games to be like you want. One of the first ones I ever modified was the game XEvil and I suspect the dopamine hit from being able to edit and recompile to see a difference has kept me going a few decades into this field. I like the idea of morally ugly things in games, but often they minmax away or are forced on you by great difficulty. For instance, in Bioshock it's optimal to be nice to the little girls. The bad option is minmaxed away. And in Frostpunk it's kind of forced on you since the tech tree is all authoritarianism. I wonder what it would be like if in the same game I could end up either the North or the South and still put up a good fight.

ajuc 6y ago
> I like the idea of morally ugly things in games, but often they minmax away or are forced on you by great difficulty I like how Witcher series does it. You have established character presented with hard dillemas with no obvious good option, implied bad side effects, and the actual effects are only seen after hours of gameplay, so you can't just reload. And it's not "pat the puppy or kill it", because the character wouldn't kill the puppy and it makes no sense, it's "feed this puppy or save the food because you have long way to the next city". The fact that you don't have perfect knowledge+delayed effects make all the difference. But it's best suited for story-heavy games like RPGs, I'm not sure it would work as well in mechanics-based game.
mrighele 6y ago
> And in Frostpunk it's kind of forced on you since the tech tree is all authoritarianism. If you're talking about the Book of Laws, you get different endings depending on what laws you enable like "we didn't cross the line" or "we went too far", or something like that. I think also that depending on the scenario you can avoid most of the "ugly laws", with the notable exception of child labour, because it gives a boost in manpower at the beginning of the game, and that makes really a difference. If you prefer, choosing a single ugly law lets me avoid all the others.
- hutzlibu 6y ago

galfarragem 6y ago

Colonization is one of the best/most complete games ever made. I look at it as a very complex board game that would be very hard to play without the help of a computer. So the idea of a remake, taking advantage of the open source age, has a lot of potential: improved pixel graphics, improved mechanics and strategy (e.g. Slavery - since the game already mentions the instrumentalization of criminals and natives during colonization there is no reason to not mention slavery. It's part of our History and you cannot erase it. Censuring this is distopic). By the other hand - to facilitate contributions - using Java is not optimal but it certainly made sense at the time, this is already an old project.

an_opabinia 6y ago
I patched FreeCol multiplayer in 2014. I was not a Java developer. But it was instrumental to how easy it was to fix this tricky bug in an hour. On the contrary many open source games use Java (or CSharp) and it helps them be moddable, discoverable and testable in ways that JavaScript would not give you for free. Additionally, the web ecosystem is built around a marketplace of external services and opaque, bundled offerings, which makes people not paying those bills (ie modders, open source contributors) second class citizens in the development process.

pelliphant 6y ago

from an european perspective: removing slavery as a central component of the colonization of america seems like revisionism.

ekianjo 6y ago
why from an European perspective? And not anyone else's? The game did feature a form of slavery with indentured servants from Europe, many of those ended up being literal slaves with no end to their contract once in the new World. Regarding the issue of slavery, Colonization would have been criticized both ways: had they included it, they would have seen as condoning it. Removing it makes it seem like they did not care or are trying to hide it from History. There's no good solution that will satisfy everyone.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "There's no good solution that will satisfy everyone. " That is allmost never the case. It is important to keep this in mind. I for once want a historical game to be trul historical. As close to the facts as possible.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Do you want a story telling device game where no matter what you do, you repeat history exactly as it’s recorded by historians? Or do you want for example slavery to be an option so you can immediately avoid it? In the latter example, of course the game wouldn’t be historic and the authors of the game would need to build in these non-canonical alternatives and fictions. I don’t disagree with you wholly because I think a video game that didn’t have slavery as a subject but did educate about it in this kind of way would be very effective at for example teaching kids and adults about things like Juneteenth or the only coup to ever happen on US soil. But unless the game is on rails, the historical facts will always be just one of the possible choices.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "But unless the game is on rails, the historical facts will always be just one of the possible choices" Sure. Thats why I am talking about the general setting. I start at a time, which I like to be somewhat historical correct. And from there it is free playing. Otherwise those strategygames would not be possible. So in the example of collonization, there definitely should be the option of slaves, as it was done. But there should also be the option of avoiding it. Basically, playing nice, without the game mechanics pushing you to be a slaver. (I do not remember how it was actually implemented) But I would not mind the game to be harder playing it nice. Which is probably more to historical truth.

tuesdayrain 6y ago

Why is adding slavery so controversial, yet almost no one thinks twice about adding murder to their game?