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The context for this is that Apple is rumored to be starting their own search engine https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/08/27/apple-may-launch-its-own-web-ba

The context for this is that Apple is rumored to be starting their own search engine https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/08/27/apple-may-launch-its-own-web-based-search-engine https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/08/27/apple-may-launch-...

paxys 6y ago
I can't believe this hasn't happened yet honestly. Apple Maps has been out for 7 years now. Also a bit troubling if it gains traction, considering Apple has been a lot more heavy handed in keeping content they don't approve of out from their ecosystem.
- sneak 6y ago
  I’m confused as to why it’s even happening now. A good index costs a fortune to build and maintain. How does this benefit Apple? They’re a hardware company.
  - paxys 6y ago
    The same reason why having a maps product benefits them. They want to have complete end-to-end control over a user's experience on their device, well beyond just the hardware. Having their biggest competitor dictate what happens whenever someone opens the web browser on an iPhone is a massive hole.
  - yyy888sss 6y ago
    No, Apple is a 'full-stack' tech company. People buy their products both for their hardware and software. If they were just a hardware company, why would they bother making macOS, iOS, iMessage, Safari etc?
    - sneak 6y ago
      To sell more hardware, obviously. You wouldn’t buy a mac without macOS. How does a search engine sell more hardware?
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        I would think that they can leverage a custom search engine in more flexible ways than Google to improve UX. Also, Apples main revenue isn’t hardware but services IIRC. They’re not a hardware company.
        sneak 6y ago
        You do not recall correctly. Services are ca. 18% of Apple’s revenue, after years of huge spending and tons of dedicated effort to grow this segment. The fact that it is as high as a fifth is itself a monumental feat. Hardware sales of the iPhone alone, excluding all computers, AirPods, and iPads, is over 40%.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        I suspect the profit split is biased more towards services than the revenue split.
        zaroth 6y ago
        This is less meaningful when the vast majority of the services are only sold to people using their hardware.
      - tinus_hn 6y ago
        Haven’t you heard people whine about how Apple is so much about privacy but they take money from Google to have it as the default search? They don’t have Google as the default search because of the money, they have it because they think it is the best. Even despite the privacy problems and the control this grants Google. How does a maps service sell more hardware? Because using their own maps service Apple can completely control the experience. Now maps was hard and search is much harder still so we may very well never see this released. But even then they can use this as leverage while negotiating with Google, both for money and for control.
      - criddell 6y ago
        > How does a search engine sell more hardware? Because your claim about them being a hardware company is incorrect. They market themselves as a privacy focused company. Privacy is all about software and services, not hardware. Search is something they could add to their portfolio to strengthen their privacy stance.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    An index of enough of the web to keep 90% of users happy can be built for ~$10k of storage. The last 10% quickly gets very expensive tho.
    - sneak 6y ago
      Hard drives are cheap enough that storing the index itself is the least expensive part of building it. Engineer time to make that index usable for a search engine is that much money every week.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    One of the selling points of apple devices is getting away from google spyware. Every bit of spyware they can prevent the user from being exposed to is better.
    - sneak 6y ago
      Apple doesn’t care at all about the most common types of spyware. Nearly every app in the iOS App Store contains tons of spyware. Apple’s view is that you consented to this sort of unaccountable invisible tracking by dozens of third parties (against whom you have zero recourse), when you agreed to the TOS of the App Store. The data is aggregated, sold, and resold again. https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/09/data-brokers-tracking/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/09/data-brokers-tracking/
- scoopertrooper 6y ago
  I imagine the release of Apple Maps may have convinced them to go slow with this kind of thing.
  - eight_ender 6y ago
    Exactly this
    - azinman2 6y ago
      There's nothing slow about this, it's already launched. I don't understand why people don't get this -- it even says so at the top of this page: "Products like Siri and Spotlight Suggestions use Applebot" I don't know why anyone would think that Apple would make a web page search engine like Google. Apple has already launched the Apple version in your phones integrated into the software you use.
      - scoopertrooper 6y ago
        Well they've gone to the effort to build a search index and they have sufficient market power to push millions of user onto whichever search engine they'd like. It's essentially leaving money on the table not to take the final step of popping a web frontend on it and making it the Safari default.
        azinman2 6y ago
        It already is the Safari default. As you type your search, it gives you a Siri Suggestion. When you type a query into Spotlight, you use it. Apple isn't an ad-supported business. It's not going to look like Google. It looks the way it's already released.
      - dylan604 6y ago
        Maybe because they are desperate for a different search provider than Google? I don't use Siri or any assistant, so I don't seem to use what I'm being averaged into using. Majority opinion here is that Siri is seriously lacking behind the other offerings. Apple won't be oblivious to this. If it is solely due to their back-end search engine, then making that a public search engine website won't do Apple any favors if the results are truly that bad.
- banachtarski 6y ago
  In all seriousness, Apple may do certain things well, but cloud-anything just doesn't appear to be in its DNA. Maps, mail, iCloud, Timemachine, etc. Pretty much every service I can think of is laden with bugs, quirks, actual data loss risk, or is slow enough to be unusable. I'm not even remotely surprised that there is no "Apple search" yet.
  - 0xEFF 6y ago
    Maps is a search problem and Apple Maps has gotten quite good. It’s my go to now after a decade of Google maps.
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      Just got an iphone last month and apple maps has worked perfectly every time for me. I'm not exactly a maps power user but I haven't seen an issue.
    - ako 6y ago
      It still lacks cycling, that is usually the reason fo me to open google maps on my iphone.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago
        As of the next iOS release that will no longer be the case
        ColoradoDev 6y ago
        As long as you live in New York City, the San Francisco Bay Area, or Shanghai and Beijing.
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        That's coming in iOS 14, evidently.
        6y ago
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Also of note, Apple Maps in the iOS 14 beta just started accepting ratings and photos at map locations, rather than dumping you out to Yelp reviews. I'm happy with this change. https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/26/apple-maps-reviews-inhouse/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/26/apple-maps-reviews-inhouse/
- dx034 6y ago
  Google's results are already pretty clean. Search results are heavily filtered (e.g. copyright, adult content) so I don't think Apple would filter more. If anything, filtering more than Google could deteriorate results. But the SEO market would certainly change if webmasters suddenly have to appeal to more than just Google to be successful.
ALittleLight 6y ago
They have a heading titled "About Search Rankings". Seems like a good indicator for a search engine to me.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Spotlight does result rankings.
- jd20 6y ago
  Apple built their own search engine over 5 years ago, under the Siri / Spotlight umbrella. When people talk about Apple building their own search engine, they generally seem to expect a website dedicated primarily to web page results, but under the covers what powers Apple's Spotlight results is basically a search engine. The big question would be what Apple would gain from a dedicated website for search results. Would people really switch to it from Google? Why would it be a better delivery mechanism for search results than Spotlight? Not sure the answers to these questions has changed much, from 5 years ago to today.
  - animex 6y ago
    They have a lock on mobile devices for the western world. They can by default pry away search revenue from Google at a large scale. They have the cash reserves to see this done properly. They'd be crazy not to come onto Google turf. Their hardware lines are sagging revenue growth wise. Service revenue is their biggest growth area. I have no idea why they didn't do this before.
    - krrrh 6y ago
      Or just like Iran's nuclear program, they can extract more concessions if they are permanently 1-2 years away from deploying a search engine. Google's spot as the default search in Safari already earns Apple billions per year.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Google pays Apple a reported $8 billion a year to be the primary search engine on iOS. Apple’s hardware sells were also up slightly in every category year over year. https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/30/apple-q3-2020-earnings/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/30/apple-q3-2020-earnings/
xwdv 6y ago
God that would be great, especially if it also ensures user privacy.
- jfoster 6y ago
  Bet it eventually becomes like Google but with less transparency. Apple will do the same stuff, but call it something different.
sudofail 6y ago
I know Apple's walled garden approach isn't for everybody, but I'd personally love to see them make a search engine that isn't built around Ads. The strategy also is consistent with their pursuit of vertical integration. I use DuckDuckGo for search, and do trust them with privacy. But if Apple did a half-decent job at nailing the search experience, I'd switch.
- wvenable 6y ago
  > I'd personally love to see them make a search engine that isn't built around Ads The ads that Apple sells on the app store contribute $2 billion in revenue -- I don't think they'd build a search engine that isn't built around ads.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Which is pretty staggering, given that the ads only appear on search results within the App Store. The scale is amazing.
  - Dirlewanger 6y ago
    Yes, and they've also been caught selling iTunes user data. People thinking Apple aren't going to copy Google's revenue model to some degree are delusional.
    - JimDabell 6y ago
      If you’re referring to this lawsuit [0], then the plaintiffs provided no evidence and the court dismissed the case with prejudice. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/26/accusing-apple-of-selling-customer-data/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/26/accusing-apple-of-selling-cus...
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    I find it unlikely Apple is going to compromise their their privacy first reputation to make an advertising platform which is competitive with Google's. I wouldn't be surprised to see advertising if Apple releases search, but it will likely be context (what you searched for) driven reliance rather than based on deep tracking. That would make it far less appealing to the skeezier advertisers. I'd expect something similar to what you see in News. I can't see how Apple would even do the kind of search result pollution Google does now. In fact, I suspect the only reason Apple is launching advertising is because they see an opportunity to provide a better experience—namely one where you see organic results immediately.
akg_67 6y ago
I would love to see a decent search engine. Google search has gone down the toilet. Most Google search results are ads or SEO optimized junk. It was funny once when I was searching for a medical term, all articles on first page were clearly SEO optimized and all articles were very similar from word usage, sentence construction, verbiage, like written by same person. I am surprised that Google doesn't filter out the results using some sort of similarity analysis to offer variety in results. I don't want to see all links giving exactly the same info.
- m0netize 6y ago
  Google is vulnerable. Never thought I'd be able to say that.
ksec 6y ago
And the same rumours has been going on for years, and I seriously doubt that. Reason is that Apple already has a Search Engine. It is called Siri. It is what you get when you ask Siri Questions. What I think Apple hopes to achieve is that get 80% of what you want, From may be Recipes, Simple Answers like Exchange Rate, Nutrients, Sport Scores... etc away from Google. Letting you to Google the absurd, hard, questions that has less Data value. All while collecting roughly $10 per user for Default Search Engine Placement in Safari. And remember the Privacy stand Apple has giving less Data to Google. Basically Apple is squeezing Google in every single direction. And pitching them against Azure and AWS for Cloud Services for discount.
romanovcode 6y ago
That would be nice.
dx034 6y ago
Let's see if Apple is the first one to nail it. I love using DDG but their results are not close to the same quality as Google for me, especially with localized results and unspecific requests. And DDG is backed by Microsoft's Bing which invested billions into this. Though having run a few websites, Google's crawler easily crawls 10x the amount of all other crawlers combined if they don't detect page slowdowns. I never understood why Bing was so conservative when it comes to crawling. I believe if anyone can build a search engine that can truly deliver the same quality as Google, the whole market could change. Google is dependent on search ad revenue like nothing else, if they lose that monopoly it could really change the company.
totaldude87 6y ago
my first reaction , was oh god, please dont! considering how worst siri is, i dont want that.. but after reading other comments like native ad tracking etc etc it could be just fine. But google pays Apple in billions to keep its search as default, what could be the key motivation for Apple to build its own engine? its a highly saturated market and we have Duck Duck Go for privacy based , bing for alternative and heck, even wolfram alpha for computational! what Apple can improve?
- junipertea 6y ago
  Based on usage of DDG, bing and wolfram alpha, I would think Apple can improve a great deal. I'm not saying it can necessarily achieve that, but I do think there is a lot of space to improve (indexing, ranking, UX)

paxys 6y ago

I can't believe this hasn't happened yet honestly. Apple Maps has been out for 7 years now. Also a bit troubling if it gains traction, considering Apple has been a lot more heavy handed in keeping content they don't approve of out from their ecosystem.

sneak 6y ago
I’m confused as to why it’s even happening now. A good index costs a fortune to build and maintain. How does this benefit Apple? They’re a hardware company.
- paxys 6y ago
  The same reason why having a maps product benefits them. They want to have complete end-to-end control over a user's experience on their device, well beyond just the hardware. Having their biggest competitor dictate what happens whenever someone opens the web browser on an iPhone is a massive hole.
- yyy888sss 6y ago
  No, Apple is a 'full-stack' tech company. People buy their products both for their hardware and software. If they were just a hardware company, why would they bother making macOS, iOS, iMessage, Safari etc?
  - sneak 6y ago
    To sell more hardware, obviously. You wouldn’t buy a mac without macOS. How does a search engine sell more hardware?
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      I would think that they can leverage a custom search engine in more flexible ways than Google to improve UX. Also, Apples main revenue isn’t hardware but services IIRC. They’re not a hardware company.
      - sneak 6y ago
        You do not recall correctly. Services are ca. 18% of Apple’s revenue, after years of huge spending and tons of dedicated effort to grow this segment. The fact that it is as high as a fifth is itself a monumental feat. Hardware sales of the iPhone alone, excluding all computers, AirPods, and iPads, is over 40%.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        I suspect the profit split is biased more towards services than the revenue split.
        zaroth 6y ago
        This is less meaningful when the vast majority of the services are only sold to people using their hardware.
    - tinus_hn 6y ago
      Haven’t you heard people whine about how Apple is so much about privacy but they take money from Google to have it as the default search? They don’t have Google as the default search because of the money, they have it because they think it is the best. Even despite the privacy problems and the control this grants Google. How does a maps service sell more hardware? Because using their own maps service Apple can completely control the experience. Now maps was hard and search is much harder still so we may very well never see this released. But even then they can use this as leverage while negotiating with Google, both for money and for control.
    - criddell 6y ago
      > How does a search engine sell more hardware? Because your claim about them being a hardware company is incorrect. They market themselves as a privacy focused company. Privacy is all about software and services, not hardware. Search is something they could add to their portfolio to strengthen their privacy stance.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  An index of enough of the web to keep 90% of users happy can be built for ~$10k of storage. The last 10% quickly gets very expensive tho.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Hard drives are cheap enough that storing the index itself is the least expensive part of building it. Engineer time to make that index usable for a search engine is that much money every week.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  One of the selling points of apple devices is getting away from google spyware. Every bit of spyware they can prevent the user from being exposed to is better.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Apple doesn’t care at all about the most common types of spyware. Nearly every app in the iOS App Store contains tons of spyware. Apple’s view is that you consented to this sort of unaccountable invisible tracking by dozens of third parties (against whom you have zero recourse), when you agreed to the TOS of the App Store. The data is aggregated, sold, and resold again. https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/09/data-brokers-tracking/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/09/data-brokers-tracking/
scoopertrooper 6y ago
I imagine the release of Apple Maps may have convinced them to go slow with this kind of thing.
- eight_ender 6y ago
  Exactly this
  - azinman2 6y ago
    There's nothing slow about this, it's already launched. I don't understand why people don't get this -- it even says so at the top of this page: "Products like Siri and Spotlight Suggestions use Applebot" I don't know why anyone would think that Apple would make a web page search engine like Google. Apple has already launched the Apple version in your phones integrated into the software you use.
    - scoopertrooper 6y ago
      Well they've gone to the effort to build a search index and they have sufficient market power to push millions of user onto whichever search engine they'd like. It's essentially leaving money on the table not to take the final step of popping a web frontend on it and making it the Safari default.
      - azinman2 6y ago
        It already is the Safari default. As you type your search, it gives you a Siri Suggestion. When you type a query into Spotlight, you use it. Apple isn't an ad-supported business. It's not going to look like Google. It looks the way it's already released.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      Maybe because they are desperate for a different search provider than Google? I don't use Siri or any assistant, so I don't seem to use what I'm being averaged into using. Majority opinion here is that Siri is seriously lacking behind the other offerings. Apple won't be oblivious to this. If it is solely due to their back-end search engine, then making that a public search engine website won't do Apple any favors if the results are truly that bad.
banachtarski 6y ago
In all seriousness, Apple may do certain things well, but cloud-anything just doesn't appear to be in its DNA. Maps, mail, iCloud, Timemachine, etc. Pretty much every service I can think of is laden with bugs, quirks, actual data loss risk, or is slow enough to be unusable. I'm not even remotely surprised that there is no "Apple search" yet.
- 0xEFF 6y ago
  Maps is a search problem and Apple Maps has gotten quite good. It’s my go to now after a decade of Google maps.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    Just got an iphone last month and apple maps has worked perfectly every time for me. I'm not exactly a maps power user but I haven't seen an issue.
  - ako 6y ago
    It still lacks cycling, that is usually the reason fo me to open google maps on my iphone.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 6y ago
      As of the next iOS release that will no longer be the case
      - ColoradoDev 6y ago
        As long as you live in New York City, the San Francisco Bay Area, or Shanghai and Beijing.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      That's coming in iOS 14, evidently.
      - 6y ago
wlesieutre 6y ago
Also of note, Apple Maps in the iOS 14 beta just started accepting ratings and photos at map locations, rather than dumping you out to Yelp reviews. I'm happy with this change. https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/26/apple-maps-reviews-inhouse/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/26/apple-maps-reviews-inhouse/
dx034 6y ago
Google's results are already pretty clean. Search results are heavily filtered (e.g. copyright, adult content) so I don't think Apple would filter more. If anything, filtering more than Google could deteriorate results. But the SEO market would certainly change if webmasters suddenly have to appeal to more than just Google to be successful.

ALittleLight 6y ago

They have a heading titled "About Search Rankings". Seems like a good indicator for a search engine to me.

saagarjha 6y ago
Spotlight does result rankings.
jd20 6y ago
Apple built their own search engine over 5 years ago, under the Siri / Spotlight umbrella. When people talk about Apple building their own search engine, they generally seem to expect a website dedicated primarily to web page results, but under the covers what powers Apple's Spotlight results is basically a search engine. The big question would be what Apple would gain from a dedicated website for search results. Would people really switch to it from Google? Why would it be a better delivery mechanism for search results than Spotlight? Not sure the answers to these questions has changed much, from 5 years ago to today.
- animex 6y ago
  They have a lock on mobile devices for the western world. They can by default pry away search revenue from Google at a large scale. They have the cash reserves to see this done properly. They'd be crazy not to come onto Google turf. Their hardware lines are sagging revenue growth wise. Service revenue is their biggest growth area. I have no idea why they didn't do this before.
  - krrrh 6y ago
    Or just like Iran's nuclear program, they can extract more concessions if they are permanently 1-2 years away from deploying a search engine. Google's spot as the default search in Safari already earns Apple billions per year.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Google pays Apple a reported $8 billion a year to be the primary search engine on iOS. Apple’s hardware sells were also up slightly in every category year over year. https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/30/apple-q3-2020-earnings/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/30/apple-q3-2020-earnings/

xwdv 6y ago

God that would be great, especially if it also ensures user privacy.

jfoster 6y ago
Bet it eventually becomes like Google but with less transparency. Apple will do the same stuff, but call it something different.

sudofail 6y ago

I know Apple's walled garden approach isn't for everybody, but I'd personally love to see them make a search engine that isn't built around Ads. The strategy also is consistent with their pursuit of vertical integration. I use DuckDuckGo for search, and do trust them with privacy. But if Apple did a half-decent job at nailing the search experience, I'd switch.

wvenable 6y ago
> I'd personally love to see them make a search engine that isn't built around Ads The ads that Apple sells on the app store contribute $2 billion in revenue -- I don't think they'd build a search engine that isn't built around ads.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Which is pretty staggering, given that the ads only appear on search results within the App Store. The scale is amazing.
- Dirlewanger 6y ago
  Yes, and they've also been caught selling iTunes user data. People thinking Apple aren't going to copy Google's revenue model to some degree are delusional.
  - JimDabell 6y ago
    If you’re referring to this lawsuit [0], then the plaintiffs provided no evidence and the court dismissed the case with prejudice. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/26/accusing-apple-of-selling-customer-data/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/26/accusing-apple-of-selling-cus...
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  I find it unlikely Apple is going to compromise their their privacy first reputation to make an advertising platform which is competitive with Google's. I wouldn't be surprised to see advertising if Apple releases search, but it will likely be context (what you searched for) driven reliance rather than based on deep tracking. That would make it far less appealing to the skeezier advertisers. I'd expect something similar to what you see in News. I can't see how Apple would even do the kind of search result pollution Google does now. In fact, I suspect the only reason Apple is launching advertising is because they see an opportunity to provide a better experience—namely one where you see organic results immediately.

akg_67 6y ago

I would love to see a decent search engine. Google search has gone down the toilet. Most Google search results are ads or SEO optimized junk. It was funny once when I was searching for a medical term, all articles on first page were clearly SEO optimized and all articles were very similar from word usage, sentence construction, verbiage, like written by same person. I am surprised that Google doesn't filter out the results using some sort of similarity analysis to offer variety in results. I don't want to see all links giving exactly the same info.

m0netize 6y ago
Google is vulnerable. Never thought I'd be able to say that.

ksec 6y ago

And the same rumours has been going on for years, and I seriously doubt that. Reason is that Apple already has a Search Engine. It is called Siri. It is what you get when you ask Siri Questions. What I think Apple hopes to achieve is that get 80% of what you want, From may be Recipes, Simple Answers like Exchange Rate, Nutrients, Sport Scores... etc away from Google. Letting you to Google the absurd, hard, questions that has less Data value. All while collecting roughly $10 per user for Default Search Engine Placement in Safari. And remember the Privacy stand Apple has giving less Data to Google. Basically Apple is squeezing Google in every single direction. And pitching them against Azure and AWS for Cloud Services for discount.

romanovcode 6y ago

That would be nice.

dx034 6y ago

Let's see if Apple is the first one to nail it. I love using DDG but their results are not close to the same quality as Google for me, especially with localized results and unspecific requests. And DDG is backed by Microsoft's Bing which invested billions into this. Though having run a few websites, Google's crawler easily crawls 10x the amount of all other crawlers combined if they don't detect page slowdowns. I never understood why Bing was so conservative when it comes to crawling. I believe if anyone can build a search engine that can truly deliver the same quality as Google, the whole market could change. Google is dependent on search ad revenue like nothing else, if they lose that monopoly it could really change the company.

totaldude87 6y ago

my first reaction , was oh god, please dont! considering how worst siri is, i dont want that.. but after reading other comments like native ad tracking etc etc it could be just fine. But google pays Apple in billions to keep its search as default, what could be the key motivation for Apple to build its own engine? its a highly saturated market and we have Duck Duck Go for privacy based , bing for alternative and heck, even wolfram alpha for computational! what Apple can improve?

junipertea 6y ago
Based on usage of DDG, bing and wolfram alpha, I would think Apple can improve a great deal. I'm not saying it can necessarily achieve that, but I do think there is a lot of space to improve (indexing, ranking, UX)