4 ms·

For some historical perspective, generally, populist revolutions throughout history, especially in the West, have been leftist, the French Revolution, American

by atomi 6y ago

For some historical perspective, generally, populist revolutions throughout history, especially in the West, have been leftist, the French Revolution, American Revolution, Mexican Revolution. Right wing revolutions tend to curtail rights like the Iranian Revolution. And the all time greatest threat to the world has been a right wing populist revolution; the rise of Nazi Germany - which thankfully was defeated.

luckylion 6y ago
Strange to see the American Revolution called leftist. And it wasn't a revolution in the sense of the French Revolution, of course. It was a province proclaiming independence. The Nazis got elected, they didn't start a revolution. The Russian Revolution is missing.
- atomi 6y ago
  > The Nazis got elected, they didn't start a revolution. Nazi's killed their political opposition, especially Communists.
  - Chlorus 6y ago
    20th century Communists, of course, were famously tolerant of their opponents.
    - atomi 6y ago
      > between 1933–39, with 30,000 communists executed and 150,000 sent to Nazi concentration camps.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Do you believe that killing political rivals makes a movement a revolution? Is Assad in Syria running a revolution? The Nazis went wild with murdering everyone they didn't like after they got elected (not that they weren't into violence before, but Hitler's attempt at a revolution failed in '23, Hitler was convicted and went to prison). They got elected on a populist vote, but that's not a revolution. Revolution != getting elected by normal proceedings.
    - atomi 6y ago
      > ...killing political rivals... > ...got elected on a populist vote... To my mind, a violent populist movement is a revolution. It's not contentious term for me.
- frenchy 6y ago
  > Strange to see the American Revolution called leftist The American Revolution was absolutely leftist in the traditional sense right as "support of the monarchy" or conservative and left as "royal abolitionists" or progressive. Of course, this maps a little awkwardly onto modern American politics. For example, the Americans of the 1800's were progressive in a lot ways, but they kept supporting the system of kidnapping Africans for slaves (and chattel slavery in general) for a lot longer because they benefited so greatly from it.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > The American Revolution was absolutely leftist in the traditional sense right as "support of the monarchy" or conservative and left as "royal abolitionists" or progressive. But that wasn't it at all. They didn't revolt "because kings are shit", they revolted because they believed the British parliament (where the anti-royalists had won against the royalists in the English civil war) didn't give them adequate representation. It was motivated by an unbalanced relationship between economic ability and political participation, not because of ideology.
  - anm89 6y ago
    Sure if you define anyone who wants to change things as leftist all revolutions are tautalogically leftist. Neo Nazis want to change things too. Does that make them progressive leftists?
    - atomi 6y ago
      > Sure if you define anyone who wants to change things as leftist all revolutions are tautalogically leftist. Most people understand this to be the case, _unless_ the revolution is _reactionary_ which is traditionally conservative. > reactionary denotes "a movement towards the reversal of an existing tendency or state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary
      - anm89 6y ago
        Interesting. Had never heard of that before but it seems to make sense in most cases. I still think american neo nazis are a counter example. They aren't really trying to go back to something that ever existed.
Chlorus 6y ago
This is a completely worthless, ahistorical comment. > French Revolution, How did that turn out? > American Revolution There is no definition of leftism that would include the American independence movement. The conception of leftism didn't even exist!. My head is about ready to explode. > Mexican Revolution See French revolution. >And the all time greatest threat to the world has been a right wing populist revolution; the rise of Nazi Germany. Pick up a book on the Weimar Republic some day, you might learn something! > Right wing revolutions tend to curtail rights like the Iranian Revolution 'Tend to' I have been repeatedly informed that the Iranian revolution was a liberation from the Western Imperialists & therefore left-wing (yes, seriously). Strangely omitted are the Russian, Chinese, & Cuban revolutions. I wonder why? Frankly, I'm shocked the mods let this topic survive on the front-page for this long. It's a honeypot for every kind of crank to show up and start arguing (myself included) In summary, you guys need to put down the IDEs & start reading actual history books (not wikipedia & and half-assed bastardized regurgitations of Chomsky)
- atomi 6y ago
  > The conception of leftism didn't even exist! Left is progressive, right is conservative. These terms can and are applied to historical events retroactively. > Pick up a book on the Weimar Republic some day, you might learn something! How is this a refute? > Strangely omitted are the Russian, Chinese, & Cuban revolutions. I wonder why? Neither Russia nor China are considered the West. But why don't you tell us. I can only guess your argument is that left wing revolutions are totally worse than Nazis.
anm89 6y ago
How was the American Revolution leftist? What even was this cohesive American Revolution. If anything it was the constitutionalists and it sure does not seem like the modern left is too excited about that racist document written by slaveowners.

by atomi 6y ago

luckylion 6y ago

Strange to see the American Revolution called leftist. And it wasn't a revolution in the sense of the French Revolution, of course. It was a province proclaiming independence. The Nazis got elected, they didn't start a revolution. The Russian Revolution is missing.

atomi 6y ago
> The Nazis got elected, they didn't start a revolution. Nazi's killed their political opposition, especially Communists.
- Chlorus 6y ago
  20th century Communists, of course, were famously tolerant of their opponents.
  - atomi 6y ago
    > between 1933–39, with 30,000 communists executed and 150,000 sent to Nazi concentration camps.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Do you believe that killing political rivals makes a movement a revolution? Is Assad in Syria running a revolution? The Nazis went wild with murdering everyone they didn't like after they got elected (not that they weren't into violence before, but Hitler's attempt at a revolution failed in '23, Hitler was convicted and went to prison). They got elected on a populist vote, but that's not a revolution. Revolution != getting elected by normal proceedings.
  - atomi 6y ago
    > ...killing political rivals... > ...got elected on a populist vote... To my mind, a violent populist movement is a revolution. It's not contentious term for me.
frenchy 6y ago
> Strange to see the American Revolution called leftist The American Revolution was absolutely leftist in the traditional sense right as "support of the monarchy" or conservative and left as "royal abolitionists" or progressive. Of course, this maps a little awkwardly onto modern American politics. For example, the Americans of the 1800's were progressive in a lot ways, but they kept supporting the system of kidnapping Africans for slaves (and chattel slavery in general) for a lot longer because they benefited so greatly from it.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > The American Revolution was absolutely leftist in the traditional sense right as "support of the monarchy" or conservative and left as "royal abolitionists" or progressive. But that wasn't it at all. They didn't revolt "because kings are shit", they revolted because they believed the British parliament (where the anti-royalists had won against the royalists in the English civil war) didn't give them adequate representation. It was motivated by an unbalanced relationship between economic ability and political participation, not because of ideology.
- anm89 6y ago
  Sure if you define anyone who wants to change things as leftist all revolutions are tautalogically leftist. Neo Nazis want to change things too. Does that make them progressive leftists?
  - atomi 6y ago
    > Sure if you define anyone who wants to change things as leftist all revolutions are tautalogically leftist. Most people understand this to be the case, _unless_ the revolution is _reactionary_ which is traditionally conservative. > reactionary denotes "a movement towards the reversal of an existing tendency or state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary
    - anm89 6y ago
      Interesting. Had never heard of that before but it seems to make sense in most cases. I still think american neo nazis are a counter example. They aren't really trying to go back to something that ever existed.

Chlorus 6y ago

This is a completely worthless, ahistorical comment. > French Revolution, How did that turn out? > American Revolution There is no definition of leftism that would include the American independence movement. The conception of leftism didn't even exist!. My head is about ready to explode. > Mexican Revolution See French revolution. >And the all time greatest threat to the world has been a right wing populist revolution; the rise of Nazi Germany. Pick up a book on the Weimar Republic some day, you might learn something! > Right wing revolutions tend to curtail rights like the Iranian Revolution 'Tend to' I have been repeatedly informed that the Iranian revolution was a liberation from the Western Imperialists & therefore left-wing (yes, seriously). Strangely omitted are the Russian, Chinese, & Cuban revolutions. I wonder why? Frankly, I'm shocked the mods let this topic survive on the front-page for this long. It's a honeypot for every kind of crank to show up and start arguing (myself included) In summary, you guys need to put down the IDEs & start reading actual history books (not wikipedia & and half-assed bastardized regurgitations of Chomsky)

atomi 6y ago
> The conception of leftism didn't even exist! Left is progressive, right is conservative. These terms can and are applied to historical events retroactively. > Pick up a book on the Weimar Republic some day, you might learn something! How is this a refute? > Strangely omitted are the Russian, Chinese, & Cuban revolutions. I wonder why? Neither Russia nor China are considered the West. But why don't you tell us. I can only guess your argument is that left wing revolutions are totally worse than Nazis.

anm89 6y ago

How was the American Revolution leftist? What even was this cohesive American Revolution. If anything it was the constitutionalists and it sure does not seem like the modern left is too excited about that racist document written by slaveowners.