6 ms·

Also on a per output basis spies are cheaper than scientists.

arcticbull 6y ago
Yes. (a) that changes nothing about what I said, and... (b) do you really, truly, honestly, believe that if America were behind in tech the first thing they'd do wouldn't be to send in the spies? Of course they would. I know because that's what I would do. As a leader my obligation is to my people at the end of the day -- and this is true -- who's going to stop me? In what world would you sit back and say, well, I think it'd be better if we just figured it out on our own, fair and square lol.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  No. The U.S. intell community does not do that, empirically. There isn’t even the apparatus for doing that. The US IC’s ties to industry, apart from defense contractors and communications, are very tenuous, hamstrung by clearance and classification problem and a very insular culture. So, in addition to being factually incorrect, is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    The US intel community (a) doesn't need to do that because in general US tech is world-class and (b) wouldn't be very good at their jobs if they admitted to it publicly. I suggest you review your Cold War history for examples of when both sides were absolutely stealing each others' technology. When you're top dog, your job is largely counter-intelligence. > So, in addition to being factually incorrect, is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft. Hold on, at what point did I suggest it shouldn't be combatted - or that it was okay? I'm saying we should expect them to try and do so. I absolutely think the US should fight back. That's the game.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      You are normalizing CPC actions by stating that the US does it or would do it in the CPC’s position.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        It’s normal in that every country would do it given half the chance. That doesn’t make it okay, and it doesn’t mean that countries on the other end should roll over and take it. I’m just saying we shouldn’t sit here gobsmacked that it’s happening. We should assume it’s happening at all times and beef up defenses precisely because it is so normal. The US absolutely does it, has done it and will do it again. That doesn’t mean chinas not defending themselves against it.
  - landryraccoon 6y ago
    > is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft. Can you clarify why? China is a state actor. State actors generally can be expected to act in self serving ways. What would be the basis for preventing espionage? Is this a moral argument that spying is evil? Of course countries should protect themselves from foreign espionage if they can, but I don’t see what blame accomplishes, unless you are willing to have a hot war to stop spying.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      The moral argument is that theft is wrong. Further, it discourages innovation.
  - nextaccountic 6y ago
    The US intel community engaged in industrial espionage against Brazil's Petrobras. A third world country. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra...
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      That article foes not substantiate your claim. That article says Snowden-leaked data shows the NSA collected information on Petrobras. There is no indication why. There is no information suggesting the NSA provided that information to US businesses or gathered the information for anything other than national security purposes. If you have something other than speculation that backs up your claim, I am happy to consider it. But this is not it.
- fred_is_fred 6y ago
  I never claimed anything you said in b).

Yes. (a) that changes nothing about what I said, and... (b) do you really, truly, honestly, believe that if America were behind in tech the first thing they'd do wouldn't be to send in the spies? Of course they would. I know because that's what I would do. As a leader my obligation is to my people at the end of the day -- and this is true -- who's going to stop me? In what world would you sit back and say, well, I think it'd be better if we just figured it out on our own, fair and square lol.

Hnrobert42 6y ago
No. The U.S. intell community does not do that, empirically. There isn’t even the apparatus for doing that. The US IC’s ties to industry, apart from defense contractors and communications, are very tenuous, hamstrung by clearance and classification problem and a very insular culture. So, in addition to being factually incorrect, is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  The US intel community (a) doesn't need to do that because in general US tech is world-class and (b) wouldn't be very good at their jobs if they admitted to it publicly. I suggest you review your Cold War history for examples of when both sides were absolutely stealing each others' technology. When you're top dog, your job is largely counter-intelligence. > So, in addition to being factually incorrect, is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft. Hold on, at what point did I suggest it shouldn't be combatted - or that it was okay? I'm saying we should expect them to try and do so. I absolutely think the US should fight back. That's the game.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    You are normalizing CPC actions by stating that the US does it or would do it in the CPC’s position.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      It’s normal in that every country would do it given half the chance. That doesn’t make it okay, and it doesn’t mean that countries on the other end should roll over and take it. I’m just saying we shouldn’t sit here gobsmacked that it’s happening. We should assume it’s happening at all times and beef up defenses precisely because it is so normal. The US absolutely does it, has done it and will do it again. That doesn’t mean chinas not defending themselves against it.
- landryraccoon 6y ago
  > is very damaging to the national discourse to normalize CPC’s strategy of wholesale IP theft. Can you clarify why? China is a state actor. State actors generally can be expected to act in self serving ways. What would be the basis for preventing espionage? Is this a moral argument that spying is evil? Of course countries should protect themselves from foreign espionage if they can, but I don’t see what blame accomplishes, unless you are willing to have a hot war to stop spying.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    The moral argument is that theft is wrong. Further, it discourages innovation.
- nextaccountic 6y ago
  The US intel community engaged in industrial espionage against Brazil's Petrobras. A third world country. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra...
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    That article foes not substantiate your claim. That article says Snowden-leaked data shows the NSA collected information on Petrobras. There is no indication why. There is no information suggesting the NSA provided that information to US businesses or gathered the information for anything other than national security purposes. If you have something other than speculation that backs up your claim, I am happy to consider it. But this is not it.
fred_is_fred 6y ago
I never claimed anything you said in b).