4 ms·

> If you're over 10 years of age you should know what your limits are. Propositionally knowing things is very different than being able to make the right decis

> If you're over 10 years of age you should know what your limits are. Propositionally knowing things is very different than being able to make the right decisions when the moment comes. A 10 year old neither has the fully developed prefrontal cortex of a 25 old nor the required self knowledge. They are not even in puberty and half of their emotions, desires, drives wouldn't have come online yet. They will depend an active presence of your adult perspective to make sense of themselves and the world. Don't worry, they will still make their own mind anyway. > I won't shame them in any way. I know you mean well, but there are legitimate instances where shame is deserved, and regardless of that, society won't pull punches on using the shame lever legitimately or not. > Nudity isn't inherently sexual and shame is a social construct. You are right, these are called the purity codes of a society, and like you say, they are very context dependent. But social construct or not, falling out of those contexts will have social consequences, e.g. leave your kids prone to rejection, with lessened social agency and more isolation.

boneitis 6y ago
> there are legitimate instances where shame is deserved Can you elaborate?
- acituan 6y ago
  Legitimate shame is a pro-social emotion against breaking purity codes. For a child this could be around cleanliness (“don’t defecate on anywhere other than allowed places”, “don’t fart while eating”), boundaries (“don’t show your genitals to others”, “don’t touch other people’s genitals”, “don’t spit on other people”) but also more complex social interactions (“don’t steal other people’s stuff”, “don’t punch your friends”, “don’t dominate the playground, let others play”). Note that although shame circuitry is involved in all, it is not in the form we are most familiar with, which is heavy handed ostracism and total abandonment, but as minimal as necessary, because shame is a very powerful emotion as is.
  - boneitis 6y ago
    Hmm. So, on the opposite end from the extremities of ostracism and abandonment, what are some ways that shame can be legitimately utilized in more minimal manner, in your view?
    - acituan 6y ago
      I’ve just enumerated the use cases. For them, a simple “That is not appropriate” or “Imagine what would others think of you” would be examples to shame based instruction. It is perfectly OK to invoke the fear of a loss in social connection if certain rules are broken, that is one of the ways we maintain social cohesion as desiring, driven, id-possesing beings. In contrast, toxic shame is using this machinery willy nilly anytime we demand cooperation as parents or peers.
      - boneitis 6y ago
        Oh, interesting! We certainly see eye to eye far more than I'd initially thought, regarding actual methods in practice. I generally like to label such actions as something more like "providing immediate/direct feedback" over light shame and, re: "what would others think of you," I might rather try to frame as something like serving to one's convenience in future interactions. Thanks.
        acituan 6y ago
        Thanks for your kindly inquiry to clarify it. Indeed shame been excessively associated with its shadow side because that is how we have been using it, while even those light versions could feel distressing enough for particularly sensitive kids. I really like this anecdote about shame: “In the 1990s I led a workshop in South Africa, soon after the Truth and Reconciliation Comission had started. After the workshop someone ... opened up about their experience working with one of the country’s tribes and how the tribe dealt with shame. When someone did something wrong the entire tribe would all gather, circling around this person ... telling them over and over again all the things they’ve done right, all the wonderful qualities about them, all the good things that they are. The tribe would provide a counter-point to the inner shame of doing something wrong, by holding up a mirror of who that person “really” is. Not implying that they hadn’t done wrong, but rather mirroring back their true nature”. From Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery, D. Fey, pg. 57.
rimliu 6y ago
For something to develop it needs to be used. There is no magic switch in your brain that goes from "not mature" to "mature" at the age X. Also, the less responsibilities you give to your kid, the less skill of being responsible they will have.

boneitis 6y ago

> there are legitimate instances where shame is deserved Can you elaborate?

acituan 6y ago
Legitimate shame is a pro-social emotion against breaking purity codes. For a child this could be around cleanliness (“don’t defecate on anywhere other than allowed places”, “don’t fart while eating”), boundaries (“don’t show your genitals to others”, “don’t touch other people’s genitals”, “don’t spit on other people”) but also more complex social interactions (“don’t steal other people’s stuff”, “don’t punch your friends”, “don’t dominate the playground, let others play”). Note that although shame circuitry is involved in all, it is not in the form we are most familiar with, which is heavy handed ostracism and total abandonment, but as minimal as necessary, because shame is a very powerful emotion as is.
- boneitis 6y ago
  Hmm. So, on the opposite end from the extremities of ostracism and abandonment, what are some ways that shame can be legitimately utilized in more minimal manner, in your view?
  - acituan 6y ago
    I’ve just enumerated the use cases. For them, a simple “That is not appropriate” or “Imagine what would others think of you” would be examples to shame based instruction. It is perfectly OK to invoke the fear of a loss in social connection if certain rules are broken, that is one of the ways we maintain social cohesion as desiring, driven, id-possesing beings. In contrast, toxic shame is using this machinery willy nilly anytime we demand cooperation as parents or peers.
    - boneitis 6y ago
      Oh, interesting! We certainly see eye to eye far more than I'd initially thought, regarding actual methods in practice. I generally like to label such actions as something more like "providing immediate/direct feedback" over light shame and, re: "what would others think of you," I might rather try to frame as something like serving to one's convenience in future interactions. Thanks.
      - acituan 6y ago
        Thanks for your kindly inquiry to clarify it. Indeed shame been excessively associated with its shadow side because that is how we have been using it, while even those light versions could feel distressing enough for particularly sensitive kids. I really like this anecdote about shame: “In the 1990s I led a workshop in South Africa, soon after the Truth and Reconciliation Comission had started. After the workshop someone ... opened up about their experience working with one of the country’s tribes and how the tribe dealt with shame. When someone did something wrong the entire tribe would all gather, circling around this person ... telling them over and over again all the things they’ve done right, all the wonderful qualities about them, all the good things that they are. The tribe would provide a counter-point to the inner shame of doing something wrong, by holding up a mirror of who that person “really” is. Not implying that they hadn’t done wrong, but rather mirroring back their true nature”. From Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery, D. Fey, pg. 57.

rimliu 6y ago

For something to develop it needs to be used. There is no magic switch in your brain that goes from "not mature" to "mature" at the age X. Also, the less responsibilities you give to your kid, the less skill of being responsible they will have.