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Airbnb Has a Hidden-Camera Problem (2019)
- tekknolagi 6y agoThe camera stuff is beyond creepy. But the name discrepancy seems like it's getting blown out of proportion. Ray is a common nickname for Ralph...
- TheJoeMan 6y agoWhile I wouldn’t like to find a hidden camera, if I did I would not steal them AND steal the keys to the house. I do wonder if you’re renting without the host present if you should just block the camera view and keep staying
- harryf 6y agoIf you know about Gerald Foos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Foos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Foos this shouldn’t be a surprise - here’s the New Yorker article https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/11/gay-talese-the-voyeurs-motel https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/11/gay-talese-the...
- t0astbread 6y agoAnd none of these people were prosecuted? Wow. I think voyeurism might just be the least taken-serious crime today.
- ummonk 6y agoSee also https://www.cbsnews.com/news/making-video-voyeurism-a-crime/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/making-video-voyeurism-a-crime/ which was absolutely infuriating to find out about.
- Nicksil 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Foos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Foos
- trhway 6y agoAirBnB should just offer a hidden camera/microphone sweep service.
- danesparza 6y agoNot needed. I just don't use AirBnB anymore. I suspect the problem isn't with the cameras, but with landlords they can't control - and that interfere with AirBnb's bottom line.
- pas 6y agoWhy would only airbnb be affected with this hidden camera problem?
- outtatime 6y agoBecause they make enough money not to care and Congress also makes enough money not to care.
- dkarp 6y agoIt's definitely not just a problem at AirBnB's. It's also a problem at Korean love hotels for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggYIsnUgUdU&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggYIsnUgUdU&feature=youtu.be AirBnB's are more affected though, as the penalty might just be a warning/fine/bad review affecting a single property. At a hotel, the entire hotel of X rooms would be affected by the bad publicity, so they have more at stake.
- spideymans 6y agoCould Airbnb solve this by implementing large fines for hosts where hidden cameras are found?
- oh_sigh 6y agoThere's also the issue of a guest setting up a hidden camera in their rented airbnb without the hosts knowledge. I doubt most hosts are sophisticated enough to even do simple things like see what devices are connected to their wifi networks or cycle wifi passwords on a per-guest basis.
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- ummonk 6y agoIronically you'd need hidden cameras to catch guests that place hidden cameras in rentals.
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- Gibbon1 6y agoThe state should solve this is by making it a felony. And make Airbnb civilly liable.
- spideymans 6y agoThere is a whole industry that has been set up around cleaning and servicing Airbnb rooms. With financial incentives, I don’t see why these services couldn’t be co-opted to also screen for cameras, as part of their regular cleaning. This is just another component of client safety. Would this eliminate the problem? No. But it sure as hell would help. Making hosts civilly liability for these hidden cameras, unless they can demonstrate they’ve taken proper steps to ensure safety, would motivate this change. Of course hosts will won’t like it, but it’s not as if these people are going to stop renting out their rooms; it’s too financially lucrative.
- spideymans 6y agoOkay HN nerds: what’s the best way to go about sniffing out these hidden cams?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- zootboy 6y agoYour eyes and a bright flashlight? Any hidden camera will need a translucent window with a lens behind it, and they're not that hard to spot once you know what you're looking for.
- phreeza 6y agoCameras with night vision mode often have an infrared LED that you can see with most phones front camera.
- dorkwood 6y agoI believe this trick doesn't work with iPhones, since the lens has a filter that blocks infrared light.
- xoxoy 6y agodon’t stay in an Airbnb
- bilbo0s 6y agoThis. If you want to shower in a place, but have to find the hidden cameras prior to taking your shower? I think that's a pretty good sign that you probably shouldn't be showering in that place.
- mumblerino 6y agoIf you think hotels are immune you’re wrong. Any room can have hidden cameras.
- heartbeats 6y agoWhy would you not do this? It decreases risk, and customers mostly care about price. As technology gets better, this is inevitable.
- untog 6y agoBecause it’s a massive invasion of privacy and customers hate it? Yes, they’re price sensitive, but if Airbnb carried a “you will be recorded while you sleep” disclaimer I doubt many would agree.
- heartbeats 6y agoWell, that's what terms of service are for. Facebook doesn't seem to have this problem. Many tenants have problems with adverse selection; more robust monitoring systems would allow for them to take on more risky tenants, without seeing their property trashed.
- margaretdouglas 6y agoCameras pointed at the bed? Sounds like voyeurism not security
- jasonhong 6y agoMy colleagues and I recently published a paper at CHI 2020 that was inspired in large part by this problem of hidden cameras in AirBnBs. Here is a link to ACM Digital Library (https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3313831.3376585 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3313831.3376585) and a PDF copy of the paper on my Box account (https://cmu.box.com/s/89iugeaf3hcc51ir9f4akrp1a9b0mogd https://cmu.box.com/s/89iugeaf3hcc51ir9f4akrp1a9b0mogd). One of the things we did was a survey of N=226 AirBnB users. 86 people said that they manually searched for devices in AirBnBs, and 8 actually found undisclosed devices. As you might imagine, manually searching is hard because devices are small, but also because you don't always know if you've found everything, and because it looks socially awkward too. People also reported on how they looked for devices, ranging from manual search (most common) to using WiFi / Bluetooth scanning tools. Here is an excerpt from our paper as to what people said they did. 11 (13%) tech-savvy participants used special tools to help search, such as using a phone camera or flashlight, scanning Bluetooth and the Wi-Fi network, and using an infrared scanner. For example, participants reported that they turned off all the lights and used their smartphone flashlight to shine around the area and look for reflections that might indicate a camera lens. Some participants reported that their smartphone cameras did not have an infrared filter, and so they could detect invisible infrared light emitted by cameras. Other participants reported using smartphone apps, such as Fing and iNet, to detect suspicious devices connecting to the network. Two participants brought RF signal detectors to scan the room for the source of RF signals (cameras). However, these methods require a strong technical background, and the devices might not be cheap (e.g., over $100 USD on Amazon for a popular RF signal detector). The main point of the paper, though, is to look at ways for IoT device manufacturers to help physically locate devices. We called these IoT Locators. An example might be to have devices blink or beep. It's trying to address the physical layer of privacy, to help people have more awareness of what's nearby and where these devices are. The logical layer might tell you that there's a camera nearby, but we also wanted to help people find those devices and see (for example) where those cameras might be pointed. There's a big difference between a camera in an AirBnb that is pointed toward the living room versus pointed out the window, something that isn't captured just by knowing that a camera is nearby. There's lots of limitations, for example needing lots of standards among device manufacturers and how to incentivize them to install things like these in devices. I would say the main idea, though, is that we need to really think more about the physical dimensions of privacy (which has been underlooked in research and industry), and that we need to think more about how to help hotels, AirBnBs, and device manufacturers that do want to do better on privacy w.r.t devices, but don't know what to do.
- Nextgrid 6y agoThe bigger problem is the VC scum behind the company which as per the typical VC playbook does not care about the negative externalities caused by their creation and will only do the minimum they can get away with. > In January, Bigham discovered cameras in his rental that he says were never disclosed. After he reached out to the Trust & Safety team, representatives told him he and his family had in fact consented to the cameras because they were visibly displayed in photos on the listing. After Bigham’s blog post on the ordeal went viral, Airbnb apologized and refunded his money. This kind of behavior is often explained by excuses like incompetence, human error or poor training. There are 2 possible outcomes: 1) It's an obvious lie and tells you everything you need to know about the company, but somehow people keep swallowing it instead of calling BS. 2) It's the true reason but highlights the fact that serious incidents like these are delegated to people with insufficient training because the company doesn't consider the problem serious enough to invest in proper training. Either option doesn't look good. This is not limited to Airbnb by the way; here are some past examples from other VC-funded companies: Kitsplit's mis-sold insurance doesn't actually protect against stolen gear, fobs the person off but then does the obvious damage control and pretends to care when the story blew up (no fucks given about the impact on the people until their own reputation becomes at risk): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20276631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20276631 Wag "dog walking as a service" startup that tries to silence a killed dog's owners with an NDA, again no concerns for the wellbeing of the owners, only concern about their own reputation: https://www.facebook.com/nick.moore.7140/posts/3600186133211 https://www.facebook.com/nick.moore.7140/posts/3600186133211 Wag again, realizing that their entire business model is broken, introduces predatory fees to stay afloat that might not even be enforceable in court: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20854100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20854100 I could find many more examples (even from companies I unfortunately worked for in the past - because yes, as a lot of people here I used to be drinking the startup koolaid and was part of the problem too) but I think it's enough to show a clear pattern here - these companies could not care less about the negative externalities of their business or actions on society at large.
- thesausageking 6y agoWhy are the VCs to blame and not the founders and executives of AirBnB?
- mensetmanusman 6y agoAirbnb should just be upfront and tell customers they need to assume they are being filmed at all times. There are cameras now the size of a grain of rice, this issue will never go away, the cat is out of the bag.
- bluejay2 6y agoMaybe this is not bad advice. Kinda like "don't post any pictures on the internet that you wouldn't want your grandma to see" or "assume your employer is reading all your e-mails". But still, it is a massive invasion of privacy and there should be some recourse for the victims/punishment for the perpetrators.
- dontcarethrow2 6y ago'Assume any current/future employer will be reviewing what you do at your AirBNB. Enjoy your stay.'
- hapless 6y agoMy favorite part is when the dude who was staying in an illegal flophouse calls the police about cameras Gee I wonder why the police response was not kind to him
- filleokus 6y agoHow costly are these cameras? What are their battery life? Do they stream or record locally? Where do people get them? (I'm obviously not interested in unethical spying, but could be fun to play with)
- grumple 6y agoYou can get a camera from Wyze for less than 40 bucks that records in hd, does well in darkness, can be remotely monitored and controlled, records sound, and has a speaker (for talking to my cat). You can set it to trigger recording on movement. I have an sd card in it, and it records about two weeks of events at a time. Records to cloud and/or local storage. Just be aware that security is never guaranteed and they’ve had some issues in the past.
- asperous 6y agoThe state should be regularly auditing hotels and room-shares, checking for fire safety, cleanliness, hidden cameras, and legality of the business. Businesses don't systematically change in response to a few customer complaints (they just sloppily deal with them), but they do respond to large fines and legal action.
- ipython 6y agoBut how would the state regulate this when subletting via Airbnb is already violating the regulations in place?
- asperous 6y agoAt least in Oregon where I live, airbnb is legal if you have a business license and maybe a permit depending in your city. The subletting issue is a civil issue that the landlord would have to sue over.
- oceanplexian 6y agoI’m not sure I agree with that. Yelp, for example has sunk countless businesses with poor food and customer service on the basis of customer complaints, and at the same time empowered others to grow. On the room share front, I can’t even count the number of regulated hotels I’ve been at that were completely unsanitary and unsafe.
- asperous 6y agoI think that would work with airbnb's rating system as well if the hidden cameras weren't hidden.