5 ms·

It's amazing how many obstacles we put in the way of planned burns, to prevent problems that we've been just have to accept when they happen unexpectedly on the

by jefftk 6y ago

It's amazing how many obstacles we put in the way of planned burns, to prevent problems that we've been just have to accept when they happen unexpectedly on their own: Planned burns are human-made events and as such need to follow all environmental compliance rules. That includes the Clean Air Act, which limits the emission of PM 2.5, or fine particulate matter, from human-caused events. In California, those rules are enforced by CARB, the state’s mighty air resources board, and its local affiliates. “I’ve talked to many prescribed fire managers, particularly in the Sierra Nevada over the years, who’ve told me, ‘Yeah, we’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get all geared up to do a prescribed burn,’ and then they get shut down.” Maybe there’s too much smog that day from agricultural emissions in the Central Valley, or even too many locals complain that they don’t like smoke. Reforms after the epic 2017 and 2018 fire seasons led to some loosening of the CARB/prescribed fire rules, but we still have a long way to go. “One thing to keep in mind is that air-quality impacts from prescribed burning are minuscule compared to what you’re experiencing right now,” said Matthew Hurteau, associate professor of biology at University of New Mexico and director of the Earth Systems Ecology Lab, which looks at how climate change will impact forest systems. With prescribed burns, people can plan ahead: get out of town, install a HEPA filter in their house, make a rational plan to live with smoke.

murgindrag 6y ago
One more odd thing is how fast we forget. There were no articles after-the-fact even indicating the fire was over, or how things were going. I searched major web sites like NY Times. Things were burning like crazy, and then reporting stopped. Is it over? Is it contained? Are San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford just gone? Reading the newspapers, you just don't know. I'd like to have a retrospective. How much damage was there? What's gone? What's still there? Etc.
- brudgers 6y ago
  CalFire updates its page regularly. And anyway Mountain View, San Francisco and Stanford weren’t at risk. Fires burn upward because heat rises. Silicon Valley is in a valley and built out. It’s not wilderness. There’s five minute fire response times throughout.
  - murgindrag 6y ago
    Five minute fire response times presume that there isn't a million acre fire saturating all fire departments. If CZU were rapidly spreading and hit the side of Palo Alto, Mountain View, and San Jose all at once, I think we'd have multiday response times. Fortunately, it wasn't. Was it possible for it to spread like that? I don't know. During COVID19, we had a constant series of claims, repeated by politicians and public health officials, which had no basis in fact. Post-COVID19, I just don't believe claims like these anymore without a citation. Most were wishful thinking.
    - mc32 6y ago
      If the CZU fire had jumped jurisdictions (HWY 35?) it would have turned worse because the Evergreen fire had sucked all those resources already. The governator really needs to return firefighting resources back to normal. There has been a significant drawdown of resources in Cal as other states boost their capabilities but the governator has not countered that and now resources are thin in CA.
      - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        We also need to pass AB 2147: https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/21147461/ca-bill-could-help-inmate-firefighters-find-future-in-fire-service https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/...
- vosper 6y ago
  I guess if these kind of fires are “the new normal” for California [0] (and also probably Australia) we should expect that to carry over to how it is covered in the media, too. Reporting will become increasingly localised to the areas affected [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire-evacuees/californias-new-normal-evacuating-wildfires-yet-again-idUSKBN1WQ2RB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire-evacu...
- nijaru 6y ago
  It might not be in the headlines on major news, but there are updates from local cal fire every day. I’ve been following cal fire scu posts on twitter. Currently 375k acres and 40% contained as of yesterday. People living in the evacuation order areas are starting to be allowed to return home. Not a lot of structural damage out here as it’s mostly wilderness, but the other fire up north in the Sonoma area has burned through multiple buildings and homes afaik. I don’t have much information on that one though since I’ve been so focused on the one close to home for me. Edit: https://twitter.com/calfireSCU https://twitter.com/calfireSCU
- a1369209993 6y ago
  > Is it over? Is it contained? Are San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford just gone? Reading the newspapers, you just don't know. Well, you know that San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford aren't just gone, because that would be a sensational news headline, and there's no way the rags would pass up the opprotunity the write about it. Otherwise spot on, though.
- me_againnnnnn 6y ago
  Yeah, the dispersal of emergency information about fires by using private media is an such an unbelievable joke. In this day and age and we get this complete incompetence ?
brudgers 6y ago
Clean air is the problem? Most people’s rational plan will be to breathing smoke because they can’t fly to the summer house, live in an apartment without central air, have to go to work, and don’t have the money for Marie Antoinette’s idea of “rational options.” They don’t live in a bubble where that flavor of bullshit is palatable.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  They have to do that anyway when (not if) the forest burns down on its own, as seems to be happening now. If you don't have the money for Marie Antoinette's idea of "rational options", you're kind of fucked regardless of whether the problem is scheduled in advance or not. Maybe try supplying them with options rather than delaying the empirically inevitable?
  - brudgers 6y ago
    Clean air regulations prevent deliberate involuntary fucking. Aka “rape.” Fire policy is largely for the economic benefit of ranching, agricultural, mining, and timber interests. Occasionally tourism. And only incidentally a few homeowners. Clean air policy is a public health measure that protects ordinary citizens from the avaricious. It’s only in the way of sociopaths.
NicolasGorden 6y ago
I think a big part of the problem is the concept of sacrifice is falling by the wayside. I feel my grandparents had a much more realistic understanding of the world and it's trade offs. I get it, yes, it sucks to have controlled burns. No, it doesn't suck as bad as out of control wildfires. But people want to have their cake and eat it at the same time. It's always been that way, but I feel there are less forces constricting such unrealistic, out of touch perspectives with reality. I feel such a perspective comes with wealth and living outside of nature. Anyone who's hiked enough, or gone camping understands the trade off between the convenience of what you carry and the weight it creates. I've heard highly intelligent people argue that we should 'increase X in the production of Y', where X is some point that pretty much everyone agrees is good. But when I mention, well that will necessitate an increase in the cost of production of Y, since you are adding extra processes, the concept is rejected. It's really quite fascinating to me to see this manifest in so many aspects.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  I think there has been a general decrease in the value placed on self discipline. Part of it is the abundance of pretty much everything, and an overall rise in the basic standard of living for the average American. Part of it is the coincidental rise in the exaltation of self- social media reputation, self promotion, self fulfillment. This change, I think, is especially evident in the change over the past decades in the American Christian communities. Churches with laws and discipline have been on a steep decline, and churches that focus on feel-good messages that basically amount to "try to be nice, it is wonderful!" seem to be becoming the norm. It isn't even just the megachurches, even Catholic traditions have largely abandoned any sense of enforcing the practice of discipline- observing dietary restrictions on Lent is more a holiday and an excuse to eat fish rather than an observation. Obviously, there are no shortage of examples of strict laws going wrong, but I do think that society as a whole could do better by practicing forms of discipline- whether religious observances, meditation, or entirely secular things like community organized walks or workout routines. The power of sacrifice, as you put it, is a strength to overcome adversity, and is a state of mind and habit that requires practice.
  - 6y ago
gvd 6y ago
What pisses me off is that there are tons of people turning on their bloody fireplaces once the temperature drops below 60F. Then they complain about crap like this
bsder 6y ago
> It's amazing how many obstacles we put in the way of planned burns, to prevent problems that we've been just have to accept when they happen unexpectedly on their own: Except there is one really big obstacle that you fail to mention: Money. You can clear brush without controlled burns. You can engineer firebreaks. etc. The problem is that you have to maintain these continuously--and that is expensive. The reason why people only talk about "controlled burns" to clear brush is because that is cheap--not because it necessarily what is most effective.

by jefftk 6y ago

murgindrag 6y ago

One more odd thing is how fast we forget. There were no articles after-the-fact even indicating the fire was over, or how things were going. I searched major web sites like NY Times. Things were burning like crazy, and then reporting stopped. Is it over? Is it contained? Are San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford just gone? Reading the newspapers, you just don't know. I'd like to have a retrospective. How much damage was there? What's gone? What's still there? Etc.

brudgers 6y ago
CalFire updates its page regularly. And anyway Mountain View, San Francisco and Stanford weren’t at risk. Fires burn upward because heat rises. Silicon Valley is in a valley and built out. It’s not wilderness. There’s five minute fire response times throughout.
- murgindrag 6y ago
  Five minute fire response times presume that there isn't a million acre fire saturating all fire departments. If CZU were rapidly spreading and hit the side of Palo Alto, Mountain View, and San Jose all at once, I think we'd have multiday response times. Fortunately, it wasn't. Was it possible for it to spread like that? I don't know. During COVID19, we had a constant series of claims, repeated by politicians and public health officials, which had no basis in fact. Post-COVID19, I just don't believe claims like these anymore without a citation. Most were wishful thinking.
  - mc32 6y ago
    If the CZU fire had jumped jurisdictions (HWY 35?) it would have turned worse because the Evergreen fire had sucked all those resources already. The governator really needs to return firefighting resources back to normal. There has been a significant drawdown of resources in Cal as other states boost their capabilities but the governator has not countered that and now resources are thin in CA.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      We also need to pass AB 2147: https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/21147461/ca-bill-could-help-inmate-firefighters-find-future-in-fire-service https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/news/...
vosper 6y ago
I guess if these kind of fires are “the new normal” for California [0] (and also probably Australia) we should expect that to carry over to how it is covered in the media, too. Reporting will become increasingly localised to the areas affected [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire-evacuees/californias-new-normal-evacuating-wildfires-yet-again-idUSKBN1WQ2RB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire-evacu...
nijaru 6y ago
It might not be in the headlines on major news, but there are updates from local cal fire every day. I’ve been following cal fire scu posts on twitter. Currently 375k acres and 40% contained as of yesterday. People living in the evacuation order areas are starting to be allowed to return home. Not a lot of structural damage out here as it’s mostly wilderness, but the other fire up north in the Sonoma area has burned through multiple buildings and homes afaik. I don’t have much information on that one though since I’ve been so focused on the one close to home for me. Edit: https://twitter.com/calfireSCU https://twitter.com/calfireSCU
a1369209993 6y ago
> Is it over? Is it contained? Are San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford just gone? Reading the newspapers, you just don't know. Well, you know that San Francisco, Mountain View, and Stanford aren't just gone, because that would be a sensational news headline, and there's no way the rags would pass up the opprotunity the write about it. Otherwise spot on, though.
me_againnnnnn 6y ago
Yeah, the dispersal of emergency information about fires by using private media is an such an unbelievable joke. In this day and age and we get this complete incompetence ?

brudgers 6y ago

Clean air is the problem? Most people’s rational plan will be to breathing smoke because they can’t fly to the summer house, live in an apartment without central air, have to go to work, and don’t have the money for Marie Antoinette’s idea of “rational options.” They don’t live in a bubble where that flavor of bullshit is palatable.

a1369209993 6y ago
They have to do that anyway when (not if) the forest burns down on its own, as seems to be happening now. If you don't have the money for Marie Antoinette's idea of "rational options", you're kind of fucked regardless of whether the problem is scheduled in advance or not. Maybe try supplying them with options rather than delaying the empirically inevitable?
- brudgers 6y ago
  Clean air regulations prevent deliberate involuntary fucking. Aka “rape.” Fire policy is largely for the economic benefit of ranching, agricultural, mining, and timber interests. Occasionally tourism. And only incidentally a few homeowners. Clean air policy is a public health measure that protects ordinary citizens from the avaricious. It’s only in the way of sociopaths.

NicolasGorden 6y ago

I think a big part of the problem is the concept of sacrifice is falling by the wayside. I feel my grandparents had a much more realistic understanding of the world and it's trade offs. I get it, yes, it sucks to have controlled burns. No, it doesn't suck as bad as out of control wildfires. But people want to have their cake and eat it at the same time. It's always been that way, but I feel there are less forces constricting such unrealistic, out of touch perspectives with reality. I feel such a perspective comes with wealth and living outside of nature. Anyone who's hiked enough, or gone camping understands the trade off between the convenience of what you carry and the weight it creates. I've heard highly intelligent people argue that we should 'increase X in the production of Y', where X is some point that pretty much everyone agrees is good. But when I mention, well that will necessitate an increase in the cost of production of Y, since you are adding extra processes, the concept is rejected. It's really quite fascinating to me to see this manifest in so many aspects.

zdragnar 6y ago
I think there has been a general decrease in the value placed on self discipline. Part of it is the abundance of pretty much everything, and an overall rise in the basic standard of living for the average American. Part of it is the coincidental rise in the exaltation of self- social media reputation, self promotion, self fulfillment. This change, I think, is especially evident in the change over the past decades in the American Christian communities. Churches with laws and discipline have been on a steep decline, and churches that focus on feel-good messages that basically amount to "try to be nice, it is wonderful!" seem to be becoming the norm. It isn't even just the megachurches, even Catholic traditions have largely abandoned any sense of enforcing the practice of discipline- observing dietary restrictions on Lent is more a holiday and an excuse to eat fish rather than an observation. Obviously, there are no shortage of examples of strict laws going wrong, but I do think that society as a whole could do better by practicing forms of discipline- whether religious observances, meditation, or entirely secular things like community organized walks or workout routines. The power of sacrifice, as you put it, is a strength to overcome adversity, and is a state of mind and habit that requires practice.
- 6y ago

gvd 6y ago

What pisses me off is that there are tons of people turning on their bloody fireplaces once the temperature drops below 60F. Then they complain about crap like this

bsder 6y ago

> It's amazing how many obstacles we put in the way of planned burns, to prevent problems that we've been just have to accept when they happen unexpectedly on their own: Except there is one really big obstacle that you fail to mention: Money. You can clear brush without controlled burns. You can engineer firebreaks. etc. The problem is that you have to maintain these continuously--and that is expensive. The reason why people only talk about "controlled burns" to clear brush is because that is cheap--not because it necessarily what is most effective.