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Here in Ireland farmers regularly burn fields and occasionally the fire gets out of control and destroys an entire mountainside. A couple of years ago one came

Here in Ireland farmers regularly burn fields and occasionally the fire gets out of control and destroys an entire mountainside. A couple of years ago one came within 100m of my parents' house - one more change of wind direction and they would have lost everything. No one ever seems to get criminally or civilly prosecuted for starting the fires. Often everyone knows who did it but there's no irrefutable evidence and the police aren't interested - perhaps as a policy because it's understood that some controlled burns are useful. California's police could equally well be told to "focus on other priorities" instead of investigating fire starters.

rectang 6y ago
California law enforcement could choose to look the other way, but it's a statistical certainty that if there's money to be made through civil suits, there will be plenty of litigation. How do you get around that?
- dmurray 6y ago
  The police are important in civil suits too. Arguably their main function in a civilised society is that you can call them when you get in a car accident and they'll write up an official report for the insurance company. If they don't spend their time writing detailed reports on the causes of fires, that at least pushes the balance of power away from the plaintiff. I don't know if this is realistic. But we have a pretty litigious society these days in Ireland too - behind the US, but ahead of almost everywhere else - and I can't find any evidence of a successful civil suit for starting a wildfire. I did find this which says there are practically no criminal cases: https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606187-Apr2019/ https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606...
threatofrain 6y ago
There’s no civil prosecution. Civil means it’s a private injury which the law can remedy. Anyone who has the standing to sue can sue, and that doesn’t make them a prosecutor.
StreamBright 6y ago
Here is a more extreme example how legislation works against the best interest of people. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678955/Black-Saturday-survivor-fined-cutting-trees-supports-hazard-reduction.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678955/Black-Satur...
perl4ever 6y ago
Regardless of what usually happens, there have been instances where someone who was negligent or started a fire for fun, was blamed for starting something that destroyed vast amounts of property and killed people. I think they can be/have been considered criminally and/or civilly liable. If it's ok for people to just start fires without any particular authorization or restrictions, then it's not clear to me how you distinguish them legally if the consequences should be particularly bad. I just don't understand logically, how you can define arson or negligence without clear rules. It's clearly incorrect that California just doesn't care. After all after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_(2018) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_(2018) PG&E was charged with 84 counts of manslaughter. Also, remember Sergio Martinez? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Fire
kurthr 6y ago
How many parts of Ireland ever receive less than 20cm of rain in a year? Grass fires are not considered a significant danger in CA... it's the big canyon fires with 20+deg slopes rising 1000m covered with Eucalyptus and other large trees interspersed with scrub brush that create firestorms and can easily burn 40km^2 per day even with mild winds.

rectang 6y ago

California law enforcement could choose to look the other way, but it's a statistical certainty that if there's money to be made through civil suits, there will be plenty of litigation. How do you get around that?

dmurray 6y ago
The police are important in civil suits too. Arguably their main function in a civilised society is that you can call them when you get in a car accident and they'll write up an official report for the insurance company. If they don't spend their time writing detailed reports on the causes of fires, that at least pushes the balance of power away from the plaintiff. I don't know if this is realistic. But we have a pretty litigious society these days in Ireland too - behind the US, but ahead of almost everywhere else - and I can't find any evidence of a successful civil suit for starting a wildfire. I did find this which says there are practically no criminal cases: https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606187-Apr2019/ https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606...

threatofrain 6y ago

There’s no civil prosecution. Civil means it’s a private injury which the law can remedy. Anyone who has the standing to sue can sue, and that doesn’t make them a prosecutor.

StreamBright 6y ago

Here is a more extreme example how legislation works against the best interest of people. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678955/Black-Saturday-survivor-fined-cutting-trees-supports-hazard-reduction.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678955/Black-Satur...

perl4ever 6y ago

Regardless of what usually happens, there have been instances where someone who was negligent or started a fire for fun, was blamed for starting something that destroyed vast amounts of property and killed people. I think they can be/have been considered criminally and/or civilly liable. If it's ok for people to just start fires without any particular authorization or restrictions, then it's not clear to me how you distinguish them legally if the consequences should be particularly bad. I just don't understand logically, how you can define arson or negligence without clear rules. It's clearly incorrect that California just doesn't care. After all after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_(2018) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_(2018) PG&E was charged with 84 counts of manslaughter. Also, remember Sergio Martinez? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Fire

kurthr 6y ago

How many parts of Ireland ever receive less than 20cm of rain in a year? Grass fires are not considered a significant danger in CA... it's the big canyon fires with 20+deg slopes rising 1000m covered with Eucalyptus and other large trees interspersed with scrub brush that create firestorms and can easily burn 40km^2 per day even with mild winds.