4 ms·

My big takeaway from the article is it will require a big culture shift in the general public, two quotes: > “I’ve talked to many prescribed fire managers, par

My big takeaway from the article is it will require a big culture shift in the general public, two quotes: > “I’ve talked to many prescribed fire managers, particularly in the Sierra Nevada over the years, who’ve told me, ‘Yeah, we’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get all geared up to do a prescribed burn,’ and then they get shut down.” Maybe there’s too much smog that day from agricultural emissions in the Central Valley, or even too many locals complain that they don’t like smoke. Reforms after the epic 2017 and 2018 fire seasons led to some loosening of the CARB/prescribed fire rules, but we still have a long way to go. > She’d like to get Californians back closer to the fire culture in the Southeast where, she said, “Your average person goes out back with Grandpa, and they burn 10 acres on the back 40 you know, on a Sunday.” Fire is not just for professionals, not just for government employees and their contractors.

perl4ever 6y ago
I don't understand how a private individual would deal with the liability.
- umvi 6y ago
  When I lived in the suburbs of Naples people would burn their trash in big piles whenever the garbage collectors went on strike and "nobody" was liable, even though sometimes the fire would spread and burn/damage stuff on the neighbor's property. Then again, Europeans don't have the same litigious culture/attitude that Americans have.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    At least Italians don't, but you get a lot of problems stemming from the "whatever, just burn it, not my problem, I just want my garbage gone"-culture. You'd get into serious trouble doing the same further north in Germany, Denmark or Sweden.
    - umvi 6y ago
      Indeed, and I admit, even within Italy this is likely uniquely a Naples problem.
      - kurthr 6y ago
        Another reason is that there have been intermittent issues with garbage pickup for decades in Napoli, but I don't think there's been a full strike in the last few years... but it is of course probably still controlled by the Camorra.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    Is it the attitude or is it the system?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    per-capita, lawsuits occur at more or less the same level in the USA as across most of western europe. the USA just has a culture that talks about suing people a lot more; in practice, Europe and the US do so at about the same rte.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - kurthr 6y ago
    How many of those fires burned 10km^2? 100m^2? 1000km^2? That's the size of each of the lightning complexes still burning. I'd guess that in decades none of them have or it would have been in the news and nobody would have done it again... Lot's of rural places burn garbage in the US. They just don't do it where there's a high risk of burning down the neighborhood.
- text70 6y ago
  Call a public service like the fire department, if it gets out of control.
  - tsomctl 6y ago
    If it gets out of control, it can quickly turn into a multi-million dollar event.
  - rascul 6y ago
    Probably best to notify the fire department in advance of the burn so that they can already be prepared if it gets out of control. I wouldn't be surprised if some jurisdictions require this.
- c0g 6y ago
  Liability is limited if you follow various statutes in Texas (and other states): https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/agricultural-law/prescribed-burning-liability-and-insurance-considerations/ https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/agricultural-law/...
- philips 6y ago
  My understanding is that you need re-regulation to protect folks with limited liability if they follow protocol and burn day guidance advice from local authorities. Here is a summary for Oregon for example https://www.oswa.org/blog/fire-liability/ https://www.oswa.org/blog/fire-liability/
- dmurray 6y ago
  Here in Ireland farmers regularly burn fields and occasionally the fire gets out of control and destroys an entire mountainside. A couple of years ago one came within 100m of my parents' house - one more change of wind direction and they would have lost everything. No one ever seems to get criminally or civilly prosecuted for starting the fires. Often everyone knows who did it but there's no irrefutable evidence and the police aren't interested - perhaps as a policy because it's understood that some controlled burns are useful. California's police could equally well be told to "focus on other priorities" instead of investigating fire starters.
  - rectang 6y ago
    California law enforcement could choose to look the other way, but it's a statistical certainty that if there's money to be made through civil suits, there will be plenty of litigation. How do you get around that?
    - dmurray 6y ago
      The police are important in civil suits too. Arguably their main function in a civilised society is that you can call them when you get in a car accident and they'll write up an official report for the insurance company. If they don't spend their time writing detailed reports on the causes of fires, that at least pushes the balance of power away from the plaintiff. I don't know if this is realistic. But we have a pretty litigious society these days in Ireland too - behind the US, but ahead of almost everywhere else - and I can't find any evidence of a successful civil suit for starting a wildfire. I did find this which says there are practically no criminal cases: https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606187-Apr2019/ https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606...
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    There’s no civil prosecution. Civil means it’s a private injury which the law can remedy. Anyone who has the standing to sue can sue, and that doesn’t make them a prosecutor.
  - StreamBright 6y ago
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  People do this where I live in NorCal. They seem to do these burns on permissive burn days, for one. Conditions might even be wet. They also tend to let law enforcement know, and law enforcement and fire people seem to understand the purpose. People from the city still call 911, but that's just because they are trained to think that distant fires are dangerous. To be expected.
kurthr 6y ago
The parts of this fire that you heard about (LNU and CZU complexes) were not caused by lack of controlled burn (some fires in the Sierra Nevada probably are). In particular North Napa and Lake counties have both burned in the same area in the last 5 years so it's sort of gibberish, while the redwood areas (like north of Santa Cruz) are not forests that regularly burn... and it is still logged which didn't stop the progression. Sadly, this expert isn't an expert on these fires... there are others where his comments would be relevant. The idea of doing controlled burns in areas that recently burned (already causing many $Billions of damage to crops and real estate) or in redwood forests which require a firestorm to ignite in a populated region with many more $Billions in real estate and 10s of thousands of inhabitants which boarder cities of millions... would be hilarious, if it wasn't so dangerous. Look at the caltopo website if you want to look at the area burning and what has previously burned. https://caltopo.com/map.html?fbclid=IwAR3Bd6K6XaKR-S_Co9io8iEWdT2CdjXz1SwEVsSjX2_uLZjXRoRzvyiBE5w#ll=38.84613,-122.84088&z=9&b=mbt&a=cf10%2Cfire https://caltopo.com/map.html?fbclid=IwAR3Bd6K6XaKR-S_Co9io8i...

perl4ever 6y ago

I don't understand how a private individual would deal with the liability.

umvi 6y ago
When I lived in the suburbs of Naples people would burn their trash in big piles whenever the garbage collectors went on strike and "nobody" was liable, even though sometimes the fire would spread and burn/damage stuff on the neighbor's property. Then again, Europeans don't have the same litigious culture/attitude that Americans have.
- luckylion 6y ago
  At least Italians don't, but you get a lot of problems stemming from the "whatever, just burn it, not my problem, I just want my garbage gone"-culture. You'd get into serious trouble doing the same further north in Germany, Denmark or Sweden.
  - umvi 6y ago
    Indeed, and I admit, even within Italy this is likely uniquely a Naples problem.
    - kurthr 6y ago
      Another reason is that there have been intermittent issues with garbage pickup for decades in Napoli, but I don't think there's been a full strike in the last few years... but it is of course probably still controlled by the Camorra.
- Jommi 6y ago
  Is it the attitude or is it the system?
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  per-capita, lawsuits occur at more or less the same level in the USA as across most of western europe. the USA just has a culture that talks about suing people a lot more; in practice, Europe and the US do so at about the same rte.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- kurthr 6y ago
  How many of those fires burned 10km^2? 100m^2? 1000km^2? That's the size of each of the lightning complexes still burning. I'd guess that in decades none of them have or it would have been in the news and nobody would have done it again... Lot's of rural places burn garbage in the US. They just don't do it where there's a high risk of burning down the neighborhood.
text70 6y ago
Call a public service like the fire department, if it gets out of control.
- tsomctl 6y ago
  If it gets out of control, it can quickly turn into a multi-million dollar event.
- rascul 6y ago
  Probably best to notify the fire department in advance of the burn so that they can already be prepared if it gets out of control. I wouldn't be surprised if some jurisdictions require this.
c0g 6y ago
Liability is limited if you follow various statutes in Texas (and other states): https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/agricultural-law/prescribed-burning-liability-and-insurance-considerations/ https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/agricultural-law/...
philips 6y ago
My understanding is that you need re-regulation to protect folks with limited liability if they follow protocol and burn day guidance advice from local authorities. Here is a summary for Oregon for example https://www.oswa.org/blog/fire-liability/ https://www.oswa.org/blog/fire-liability/
dmurray 6y ago
Here in Ireland farmers regularly burn fields and occasionally the fire gets out of control and destroys an entire mountainside. A couple of years ago one came within 100m of my parents' house - one more change of wind direction and they would have lost everything. No one ever seems to get criminally or civilly prosecuted for starting the fires. Often everyone knows who did it but there's no irrefutable evidence and the police aren't interested - perhaps as a policy because it's understood that some controlled burns are useful. California's police could equally well be told to "focus on other priorities" instead of investigating fire starters.
- rectang 6y ago
  California law enforcement could choose to look the other way, but it's a statistical certainty that if there's money to be made through civil suits, there will be plenty of litigation. How do you get around that?
  - dmurray 6y ago
    The police are important in civil suits too. Arguably their main function in a civilised society is that you can call them when you get in a car accident and they'll write up an official report for the insurance company. If they don't spend their time writing detailed reports on the causes of fires, that at least pushes the balance of power away from the plaintiff. I don't know if this is realistic. But we have a pretty litigious society these days in Ireland too - behind the US, but ahead of almost everywhere else - and I can't find any evidence of a successful civil suit for starting a wildfire. I did find this which says there are practically no criminal cases: https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606187-Apr2019/ https://www.thejournal.ie/wildfires-donegal-legislation-4606...
- threatofrain 6y ago
  There’s no civil prosecution. Civil means it’s a private injury which the law can remedy. Anyone who has the standing to sue can sue, and that doesn’t make them a prosecutor.
- StreamBright 6y ago
themodelplumber 6y ago
People do this where I live in NorCal. They seem to do these burns on permissive burn days, for one. Conditions might even be wet. They also tend to let law enforcement know, and law enforcement and fire people seem to understand the purpose. People from the city still call 911, but that's just because they are trained to think that distant fires are dangerous. To be expected.

kurthr 6y ago

The parts of this fire that you heard about (LNU and CZU complexes) were not caused by lack of controlled burn (some fires in the Sierra Nevada probably are). In particular North Napa and Lake counties have both burned in the same area in the last 5 years so it's sort of gibberish, while the redwood areas (like north of Santa Cruz) are not forests that regularly burn... and it is still logged which didn't stop the progression. Sadly, this expert isn't an expert on these fires... there are others where his comments would be relevant. The idea of doing controlled burns in areas that recently burned (already causing many $Billions of damage to crops and real estate) or in redwood forests which require a firestorm to ignite in a populated region with many more $Billions in real estate and 10s of thousands of inhabitants which boarder cities of millions... would be hilarious, if it wasn't so dangerous. Look at the caltopo website if you want to look at the area burning and what has previously burned. https://caltopo.com/map.html?fbclid=IwAR3Bd6K6XaKR-S_Co9io8iEWdT2CdjXz1SwEVsSjX2_uLZjXRoRzvyiBE5w#ll=38.84613,-122.84088&z=9&b=mbt&a=cf10%2Cfire https://caltopo.com/map.html?fbclid=IwAR3Bd6K6XaKR-S_Co9io8i...