5 ms·

Unfortunately, this infrastructure is at an uncanny intersection of technology, business and politics. To learn the technical aspect of it, you can follow any

by q3k 6y ago

Unfortunately, this infrastructure is at an uncanny intersection of technology, business and politics. To learn the technical aspect of it, you can follow any network engineering certification materials or resources that delve into dynamic routing protocols, notably BGP. Inter-ISP networking is nothing but setting up BGP sessions and filters at the technical level. Why you set these up, and under what conditions is a whole different can of worms, though. The business and political aspect is a bit more difficult to learn without practice, but a good simulacrum can be taking part in a project like dn42, or even just getting an ASN and some IPv6 PA space and trying to announce it somewhere. However, this is no substitute for actual experience running an ISP, negotiating percentile billing rates with salespeople, getting into IXes, answering peering requests, getting rejected from peering requests, etc. :) Disclaimer: I helped start a non-profit ISP in part to learn about these things in practice.

bausano_michael 6y ago
Judging by other comments, it seems there's a space to fill this niche with a series of blog articles or a book, if you're that sort of person.
- kitteh 6y ago
  There are plenty of presentations out there. See nanog, ripe. The books are meh because they're not written by operators. They're more academic and dated. Plenty of clueful folks on the right IRC channels.
  - hpkuarg 6y ago
    Second time in this thread you've mentioned the right IRC channels. Does one need to invoke some secret code to find out what they are? :-)
    - rolph 6y ago
      in certain instances, yes depending on the nature or subject matter of the channel ok lets go for broke, there are a LOT of clandestine IRC servers and exclusive gatekeeping of channels. you wont know about unless you have an IRL reference
      - stoops 6y ago
        The first rule of Fight Club is that you don't talk about Fight Club.
    - kazen44 6y ago
      usually these channels are either invite only (for members of a NOG for example) or are very, very hard to find if you don't know the proper people.
jsjohnst 6y ago
> or even just getting an ASN and some IPv6 PA space and trying to announce it somewhere That’s fairly expensive to do just for a hobby interest, but at least the price has came down since I last looked.
- q3k 6y ago
  A RIPE ASN (as a end-user through a LIR) and PA v6 will cost you around $100 per year and some mild paperwork, there's plenty of companies/organizations that will help you with that (shameless plug: bgp.wtf, that's us). Afterwards, announcing this space is probably the cheapest with vultr (but their BGP connectivity to VMs is uh, erratic at times) or with ix-vm.cloud, or with packet.net (more expensive). You can also try to colo something in he.net FMT2 and reach FCIX, or something in kleyrex in Germany. All in all, you should be able to do something like run a toy v6 anycast CDN at not more than $100 per month.
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    > bgp.wtf, that's us I feel like you ought to be part of the ffdn database: https://db.ffdn.org/ https://db.ffdn.org/ Though the "French Data Networks Federation" is a French organization, their db tries to cover every independent, nonprofit ISP in the world :)
    - q3k 6y ago
      That couldn't work, unfortunately, per https://www.ffdn.org/en/charter-good-practices-and-common-commitments https://www.ffdn.org/en/charter-good-practices-and-common-co... : > All subscribers to Internet access provided by the provider must be members of the provider and must have the corresponding rights, including the right to vote, within reasonable time and procedure. Not all of our subscribers are members of our association. The association is primarily a hackerspace with hackerspace members being members of the association. We just happen to also be an ISP selling services commercially (eg. to people colocating equipment with us, or buying FTTH connectivity in the building we're located in).
akritrime 6y ago
What resources can I follow to start a non-profit ISP? I want to start one in my hometown for students who couldn't afford internet to join online classes.
- q3k 6y ago
  There's a bunch of guidelines for starting a (W)ISP depending on your region.
  - akritrime 6y ago
    I actually tried, but all I got was some consultancy services that would help you get an ISP with estimated cost of 10k USD (a middle class household earns half of that in a year here).
    - walrus01 6y ago
      http://wndw.net/book.html http://wndw.net/book.html
- dboreham 6y ago
  Why not just raise money to pay for service from for-profit providers? Much more efficient use of donation funds.
  - akritrime 6y ago
    Hmm, I actually didn't think about that at all. I guess I got too fascinated by this video[0] and wanted to apply something similar to our current scenario. [0]: https://youtu.be/lEplzHraw3c https://youtu.be/lEplzHraw3c
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Because often enough there is only one dominant service in the region who has no pressure to compete from anyone due to regulatory capture (esp. regarding right of way on utility poles) and so has no incentive to upgrade their offers to the customers.

by q3k 6y ago

bausano_michael 6y ago

Judging by other comments, it seems there's a space to fill this niche with a series of blog articles or a book, if you're that sort of person.

kitteh 6y ago
There are plenty of presentations out there. See nanog, ripe. The books are meh because they're not written by operators. They're more academic and dated. Plenty of clueful folks on the right IRC channels.
- hpkuarg 6y ago
  Second time in this thread you've mentioned the right IRC channels. Does one need to invoke some secret code to find out what they are? :-)
  - rolph 6y ago
    in certain instances, yes depending on the nature or subject matter of the channel ok lets go for broke, there are a LOT of clandestine IRC servers and exclusive gatekeeping of channels. you wont know about unless you have an IRL reference
    - stoops 6y ago
      The first rule of Fight Club is that you don't talk about Fight Club.
  - kazen44 6y ago
    usually these channels are either invite only (for members of a NOG for example) or are very, very hard to find if you don't know the proper people.

jsjohnst 6y ago

> or even just getting an ASN and some IPv6 PA space and trying to announce it somewhere That’s fairly expensive to do just for a hobby interest, but at least the price has came down since I last looked.

q3k 6y ago
A RIPE ASN (as a end-user through a LIR) and PA v6 will cost you around $100 per year and some mild paperwork, there's plenty of companies/organizations that will help you with that (shameless plug: bgp.wtf, that's us). Afterwards, announcing this space is probably the cheapest with vultr (but their BGP connectivity to VMs is uh, erratic at times) or with ix-vm.cloud, or with packet.net (more expensive). You can also try to colo something in he.net FMT2 and reach FCIX, or something in kleyrex in Germany. All in all, you should be able to do something like run a toy v6 anycast CDN at not more than $100 per month.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  > bgp.wtf, that's us I feel like you ought to be part of the ffdn database: https://db.ffdn.org/ https://db.ffdn.org/ Though the "French Data Networks Federation" is a French organization, their db tries to cover every independent, nonprofit ISP in the world :)
  - q3k 6y ago
    That couldn't work, unfortunately, per https://www.ffdn.org/en/charter-good-practices-and-common-commitments https://www.ffdn.org/en/charter-good-practices-and-common-co... : > All subscribers to Internet access provided by the provider must be members of the provider and must have the corresponding rights, including the right to vote, within reasonable time and procedure. Not all of our subscribers are members of our association. The association is primarily a hackerspace with hackerspace members being members of the association. We just happen to also be an ISP selling services commercially (eg. to people colocating equipment with us, or buying FTTH connectivity in the building we're located in).

akritrime 6y ago

What resources can I follow to start a non-profit ISP? I want to start one in my hometown for students who couldn't afford internet to join online classes.

q3k 6y ago
There's a bunch of guidelines for starting a (W)ISP depending on your region.
- akritrime 6y ago
  I actually tried, but all I got was some consultancy services that would help you get an ISP with estimated cost of 10k USD (a middle class household earns half of that in a year here).
  - walrus01 6y ago
    http://wndw.net/book.html http://wndw.net/book.html
dboreham 6y ago
Why not just raise money to pay for service from for-profit providers? Much more efficient use of donation funds.
- akritrime 6y ago
  Hmm, I actually didn't think about that at all. I guess I got too fascinated by this video[0] and wanted to apply something similar to our current scenario. [0]: https://youtu.be/lEplzHraw3c https://youtu.be/lEplzHraw3c
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Because often enough there is only one dominant service in the region who has no pressure to compete from anyone due to regulatory capture (esp. regarding right of way on utility poles) and so has no incentive to upgrade their offers to the customers.