6 ms·

Noam Chomsky: 'There's never been a moment in human history' like this one

33 points by brzozowski 6y ago

briga 6y ago
Technically true for all moments in human history
warrenq 6y ago
https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyp...
- puranjay 6y ago
  Just because they got the dates wrong doesn't mean that they got the trend wrong.
  - tome 6y ago
    "Correctly predicted 10 of the last 0 eco-pocolypses" comes to mind. [Adjust the figures as you see fit, but the latter won't come close to the former.]
    - puranjay 6y ago
      That's a very narrow viewpoint. Several species and ecosystems are certainly going through eco-pocalypses even right now. Lots of very poor people have also gone through their own versions of eco-pocalypses
- aww_dang 6y ago
  https://www.wired.com/1997/02/the-doomslayer-2/ https://www.wired.com/1997/02/the-doomslayer-2/
haunter 6y ago
If he means human history = US history then maybe. 1 out of those 5 are very US specific right now (racial unrest). The raging pandemic is once again regional where US is the worst globally but I'd not apply to the same to Europe and not at all to East Asia. The remaining 3 for sure a global problem but even then I do not think a chance for a nuclear war is higher than before say in the Cold War
- kasperni 6y ago
  > If he means human history = US history then maybe. Don't most posts on HN?
tome 6y ago
> Noam Chomsky said humans are living through the darkest and most consequential time in history. > Chomsky said the current age is a “point of confluence of severe crises,” including the threat of nuclear war, climate change, a raging pandemic, economic depression and racial unrest in the United States. The period between 1914 and 1945 would probably beg to differ. I've found it interesting to read "left" and "right"[1] pundits on Twitter recently. Each "side"[2] believes that this is the last chance to save democracy and all hell will be unleashed if their candidate loses. Ten years ago we had the "Tea Party", on average a deranged bunch of lunatics without the ability to see or think clearly. In response one could validly and amusingly proclaim "facts have a notoriously liberal bias". Fox News was extremely partisan and contributed to a sort of radicalisation of the right. In 2020 the same lunacy seems to have taken over the Democratic party as a whole. Facts are out of the window on both sides. Fox News and CNN and a whole host of other media outlets are contributing to radicalisation of both sides. In 2016 the media convinced me that Trump would turn into Hitler 2.0. I'm glad and embarrassed to realise that what he has turned into is an average Republican president except he understands the working class and he hasn't started any wars. This is "the darkest and most consequential time in history" for people who want to push an agenda (right-wing commentators will claim the same, not just left-wing ones) and for media outlets who want to increase their ratings. We are facing deep, deep problems that need overcoming, but only people whose worldview was based on the assumption that the growth and stability of '92-'08 would last forever are going to be swayed by claims of this being the worst ever. In order to be able to tackle the challenges on our plate society needs to be able to think clearly. What we need at the moment are calming forces, not the inducement of more panic. [1] for want of better descriptions [2] if you can really call them "sides"
- s5300 6y ago
  Everything else aside; where do you get the slightest clue from Trump and his life history that he "understands the working class" Like, that's such a low ball man. Do you understand the working class?
  - tome 6y ago
    I think he understands that a large swath of working class Americans (particularly, but not only, white men) have had the wind knocked out of their sails by the social changes of the last approximately thirty years, and the economic changes due to offshoring their jobs to the developing world over the same period. > Do you understand the working class? I'm not sure, man. Like, do you?
caymanjim 6y ago
Way to throw the hyperbole, Noam. "Right now" doesn't even crack the top five most historically-important periods in the past century, much less all of human history. There are some unusual things going on right now, but the only one that's going to be remembered in a few decades is Covid. By most other metrics, it's business as usual. From an American perspective, it's absurd to elevate "now" above the Great Depression, World War 2, the Vietnam War, and the massive social and political changes accompanying each, to name just three eras in the past century. Tack on another century, and now doesn't even make it into the textbook. Yeah, there's never been another moment like this, but that's true always and forever. There are some big things going on all the time. Add them all up, and this is a pretty bland time in the grand scheme of things.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  That's only if things turn out fine. It seems like he thinks nuclear war is actually possible and the effects of climate change are coming soon and big. If that's so (I'm not saying it is) then what could possibly be comparable?
  - aaron695 6y ago
    > It seems like he thinks nuclear war is actually possible and the effects of climate change are coming soon and big. If that's so (I'm not saying it is) then what could possibly be comparable? That is a tautology kinda. If we assume something that's bigger than anything else happens, what was bigger. Nuclear war is silly, because The Cuban Missile crisis was scarier and probably would have been worse if it had of kicked off. If climate change all happens in a year instead of 100 years, it's big, but not that big. You'd notice it less that the coronavirus.
    - tome 6y ago
      > If climate change all happens in a year instead of 100 years, it's big, but not that big. You'd notice it less that the coronavirus. That's interesting. Can you say more about that? It's very much counter to the conventional wisdom (mass death, mass migration, mass starvation, destruction of coastal civilisation, etc..)
aww_dang 6y ago
Doomsayers should understand that opponents hear the following: "This time is different. The end is nigh. Our only hope is for heathens to ascribe to our morally superior political ideology and central planning. Heretic unbelievers must accept the gospel truths of technocracy and scientism!" Make what you will of that, but there must be a more effective way to communicate. Doomsaying is not uncommon. Nor are ideologues seeking power while claiming the mantle of "collective good". Suspicion is not unwarranted. Please don't read this as a denial of the existence of backward and regressive individuals. Thanks.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  > central planning If they hear that then they must not know that Chomsky has spent his life arguing against central planning and "technocracy." He's literally an anarchist. [1] [1]. https://chomsky.info/19760725/ https://chomsky.info/19760725/
  - tome 6y ago
    Yes, most likely most people reading that would not know that about Chomsky.
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    This lacks nuance for me. >"CHOMSKY: Let me just say I don’t really regard myself as an anarchist thinker." https://books.google.com/books/about/Internationalism_Or_Extinction.html?id=o3zADwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y https://books.google.com/books/about/Internationalism_Or_Ext... From the summary of: "Internationalism or Extinction", his new book. >The introduction and accompanying interviews place these dual threats in a framework of unprecedented corporate global power which has overtaken nation states’ ability to control the future and preserve the planet. Chomsky argues for the urgency of international climate and arms agreements, showing how global popular movements are mobilizing to force governments to meet this unprecedented challenge to civilization’s survival. He's an anarchist who doesn't regard himself as an "anarchist thinker". He's against central planning, but laments the state's failing ability to "control the future and preserve the planet". He argues for supranational governance to protect civilization. The proposed solutions seem at odds with the assertion that he is against central planning. I'm not sure if it is fair to define him as an ideologue within narrow political terms. Perhaps it is a case of pragmatism overtaking ideals?
nemoniac 6y ago
I'm aghast that Noam Chomsky is getting flagged on HN.

33 points by brzozowski 6y ago

Technically true for all moments in human history

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyp...

puranjay 6y ago
Just because they got the dates wrong doesn't mean that they got the trend wrong.
- tome 6y ago
  "Correctly predicted 10 of the last 0 eco-pocolypses" comes to mind. [Adjust the figures as you see fit, but the latter won't come close to the former.]
  - puranjay 6y ago
    That's a very narrow viewpoint. Several species and ecosystems are certainly going through eco-pocalypses even right now. Lots of very poor people have also gone through their own versions of eco-pocalypses
aww_dang 6y ago
https://www.wired.com/1997/02/the-doomslayer-2/ https://www.wired.com/1997/02/the-doomslayer-2/

haunter 6y ago

If he means human history = US history then maybe. 1 out of those 5 are very US specific right now (racial unrest). The raging pandemic is once again regional where US is the worst globally but I'd not apply to the same to Europe and not at all to East Asia. The remaining 3 for sure a global problem but even then I do not think a chance for a nuclear war is higher than before say in the Cold War

kasperni 6y ago
> If he means human history = US history then maybe. Don't most posts on HN?

tome 6y ago

> Noam Chomsky said humans are living through the darkest and most consequential time in history. > Chomsky said the current age is a “point of confluence of severe crises,” including the threat of nuclear war, climate change, a raging pandemic, economic depression and racial unrest in the United States. The period between 1914 and 1945 would probably beg to differ. I've found it interesting to read "left" and "right"[1] pundits on Twitter recently. Each "side"[2] believes that this is the last chance to save democracy and all hell will be unleashed if their candidate loses. Ten years ago we had the "Tea Party", on average a deranged bunch of lunatics without the ability to see or think clearly. In response one could validly and amusingly proclaim "facts have a notoriously liberal bias". Fox News was extremely partisan and contributed to a sort of radicalisation of the right. In 2020 the same lunacy seems to have taken over the Democratic party as a whole. Facts are out of the window on both sides. Fox News and CNN and a whole host of other media outlets are contributing to radicalisation of both sides. In 2016 the media convinced me that Trump would turn into Hitler 2.0. I'm glad and embarrassed to realise that what he has turned into is an average Republican president except he understands the working class and he hasn't started any wars. This is "the darkest and most consequential time in history" for people who want to push an agenda (right-wing commentators will claim the same, not just left-wing ones) and for media outlets who want to increase their ratings. We are facing deep, deep problems that need overcoming, but only people whose worldview was based on the assumption that the growth and stability of '92-'08 would last forever are going to be swayed by claims of this being the worst ever. In order to be able to tackle the challenges on our plate society needs to be able to think clearly. What we need at the moment are calming forces, not the inducement of more panic. [1] for want of better descriptions [2] if you can really call them "sides"

s5300 6y ago
Everything else aside; where do you get the slightest clue from Trump and his life history that he "understands the working class" Like, that's such a low ball man. Do you understand the working class?
- tome 6y ago
  I think he understands that a large swath of working class Americans (particularly, but not only, white men) have had the wind knocked out of their sails by the social changes of the last approximately thirty years, and the economic changes due to offshoring their jobs to the developing world over the same period. > Do you understand the working class? I'm not sure, man. Like, do you?

caymanjim 6y ago

Way to throw the hyperbole, Noam. "Right now" doesn't even crack the top five most historically-important periods in the past century, much less all of human history. There are some unusual things going on right now, but the only one that's going to be remembered in a few decades is Covid. By most other metrics, it's business as usual. From an American perspective, it's absurd to elevate "now" above the Great Depression, World War 2, the Vietnam War, and the massive social and political changes accompanying each, to name just three eras in the past century. Tack on another century, and now doesn't even make it into the textbook. Yeah, there's never been another moment like this, but that's true always and forever. There are some big things going on all the time. Add them all up, and this is a pretty bland time in the grand scheme of things.

guerrilla 6y ago
That's only if things turn out fine. It seems like he thinks nuclear war is actually possible and the effects of climate change are coming soon and big. If that's so (I'm not saying it is) then what could possibly be comparable?
- aaron695 6y ago
  > It seems like he thinks nuclear war is actually possible and the effects of climate change are coming soon and big. If that's so (I'm not saying it is) then what could possibly be comparable? That is a tautology kinda. If we assume something that's bigger than anything else happens, what was bigger. Nuclear war is silly, because The Cuban Missile crisis was scarier and probably would have been worse if it had of kicked off. If climate change all happens in a year instead of 100 years, it's big, but not that big. You'd notice it less that the coronavirus.
  - tome 6y ago
    > If climate change all happens in a year instead of 100 years, it's big, but not that big. You'd notice it less that the coronavirus. That's interesting. Can you say more about that? It's very much counter to the conventional wisdom (mass death, mass migration, mass starvation, destruction of coastal civilisation, etc..)

aww_dang 6y ago

Doomsayers should understand that opponents hear the following: "This time is different. The end is nigh. Our only hope is for heathens to ascribe to our morally superior political ideology and central planning. Heretic unbelievers must accept the gospel truths of technocracy and scientism!" Make what you will of that, but there must be a more effective way to communicate. Doomsaying is not uncommon. Nor are ideologues seeking power while claiming the mantle of "collective good". Suspicion is not unwarranted. Please don't read this as a denial of the existence of backward and regressive individuals. Thanks.

guerrilla 6y ago
> central planning If they hear that then they must not know that Chomsky has spent his life arguing against central planning and "technocracy." He's literally an anarchist. [1] [1]. https://chomsky.info/19760725/ https://chomsky.info/19760725/
- tome 6y ago
  Yes, most likely most people reading that would not know that about Chomsky.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  This lacks nuance for me. >"CHOMSKY: Let me just say I don’t really regard myself as an anarchist thinker." https://books.google.com/books/about/Internationalism_Or_Extinction.html?id=o3zADwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y https://books.google.com/books/about/Internationalism_Or_Ext... From the summary of: "Internationalism or Extinction", his new book. >The introduction and accompanying interviews place these dual threats in a framework of unprecedented corporate global power which has overtaken nation states’ ability to control the future and preserve the planet. Chomsky argues for the urgency of international climate and arms agreements, showing how global popular movements are mobilizing to force governments to meet this unprecedented challenge to civilization’s survival. He's an anarchist who doesn't regard himself as an "anarchist thinker". He's against central planning, but laments the state's failing ability to "control the future and preserve the planet". He argues for supranational governance to protect civilization. The proposed solutions seem at odds with the assertion that he is against central planning. I'm not sure if it is fair to define him as an ideologue within narrow political terms. Perhaps it is a case of pragmatism overtaking ideals?

nemoniac 6y ago

I'm aghast that Noam Chomsky is getting flagged on HN.