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And they make every developer buy a Mac because they prohibit running macOS in VMs and in general don't allow building iOS apps without the use of Mac hardware.

And they make every developer buy a Mac because they prohibit running macOS in VMs and in general don't allow building iOS apps without the use of Mac hardware. That's probably a bigger expense than the app store fees for most, and artificially inflates macOS market share in the important developer market.

nagyf 6y ago
If you write an app that you can sell on the app store to 860 people for $5 you already got the money to buy a Macbook Pro 16”. I don’t think the Macbook restriction is such a big problem. However, if you sell it to 1 million people and Apple takes the 30% cut, that’s a loss of $1.5M for you... (Maybe I miss something, I never wrote iOS apps, I’m just doing the math)
- mkl 6y ago
  You need to buy the Mac before writing the app. You might make enough to repay that investment, but it's out of pocket to start with. For many people that is a big problem.
  - d3nj4l 6y ago
    This also makes it difficult to write FOSS apps for iOS, because the developer would have to front the cost of a macOS workstation + the $99 yearly fee with no expectation of a return at all.
    - projektfu 6y ago
      Technically you can make it GNU compatible and charge for it with the source online. A user needs the build system but can modify your app and rerelease it at their convenience. I prefer the F-Droid model myself.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    This really is a ridiculous point to make. You need a Mac because important components like the XCode Simulator require OSX libraries in order to function. It's no different to me needed a Windows machine in order to build Office plugins.
    - modeless 6y ago
      I regularly cross compile for Windows from Linux, and I don't need to buy any hardware from Microsoft.
      - efreak 6y ago
        Microsoft has little to do with the hardware you run their software on
    - mkl 6y ago
      If those software components were all that was needed, we could just run macOS in a VM, as we can easily do with Windows or Linux. Apple forbids that specifically to make all prospective Mac/iOS developers buy Mac hardware.
- modeless 6y ago
  I would bet that the median developer in the developer program doesn't sell enough on the App Store to recoup the cost of a mid-range MacBook Pro every 3-5 years and an iPhone every other year and the developer program annual fee.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  > If you write an app that you can sell on the app store to 860 people for $5 fwiw, that's an incredibly hard feat that most people don't ever accomplish. Even "it's just 16 work-weeks at minimum wage" would have been a better demo.
threeseed 6y ago
> And they make every developer buy a Mac No. You just need to be able to run OSX. For the last 6 months I've been running OSX on my X299/10980xe desktop using OpenCore. And it is far along enough now that you can run it on a range of PC equipment including AMD. And Apple has said on a number of occasions that provided you don't sell these Hackintosh desktops they fully support you playing around with OSX this way.
- modeless 6y ago
  This is illegal and I am skeptical that Apple has officially endorsed breaking their EULA.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    It's a breach of the EULA which is very different from being illegal. And Craig Federighi has talked on quite a few occasions about supporting the hacking culture within OSX. Which is why Apple never went after Hackintosh like they could have e.g. by enforcing SIP. There are hundreds of Github projects and websites right now detailing how to setup a Hackintosh Mac and not once has anyone ever received a cease and desist.
    - modeless 6y ago
      It's breach of contract and copyright infringement among other things, so it is illegal. Not taking every opportunity to enforce the EULA is not the same thing as condoning breaking it. If Apple actually wanted to support hackintoshes they could change the EULA, but they never will.
      - threeseed 6y ago
        If the VP of Engineering publicly states it's okay I will take his word for it. And it's definitely not clear depending on your country whether an EULA is enforceable or not. And the reason it's not permitted in the EULA is because it would allow commercial competitors to build Hackintosh Macs which nearly destroyed the company during the Power Computing era.
gerash 6y ago
This upfront payment from the developer might have the side effect of weeding out all but those who are heavily invested in their iOS app. Ensuring the apps there are not hobby or side projects and are maintained and supported by full-time devs. That said, I wouldn't lock myself into that ecosystem with all those upfront costs and restrictive terms where Apple benefits much more from the devs than the other way round.

nagyf 6y ago

If you write an app that you can sell on the app store to 860 people for $5 you already got the money to buy a Macbook Pro 16”. I don’t think the Macbook restriction is such a big problem. However, if you sell it to 1 million people and Apple takes the 30% cut, that’s a loss of $1.5M for you... (Maybe I miss something, I never wrote iOS apps, I’m just doing the math)

mkl 6y ago
You need to buy the Mac before writing the app. You might make enough to repay that investment, but it's out of pocket to start with. For many people that is a big problem.
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  This also makes it difficult to write FOSS apps for iOS, because the developer would have to front the cost of a macOS workstation + the $99 yearly fee with no expectation of a return at all.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    Technically you can make it GNU compatible and charge for it with the source online. A user needs the build system but can modify your app and rerelease it at their convenience. I prefer the F-Droid model myself.
- threeseed 6y ago
  This really is a ridiculous point to make. You need a Mac because important components like the XCode Simulator require OSX libraries in order to function. It's no different to me needed a Windows machine in order to build Office plugins.
  - modeless 6y ago
    I regularly cross compile for Windows from Linux, and I don't need to buy any hardware from Microsoft.
    - efreak 6y ago
      Microsoft has little to do with the hardware you run their software on
  - mkl 6y ago
    If those software components were all that was needed, we could just run macOS in a VM, as we can easily do with Windows or Linux. Apple forbids that specifically to make all prospective Mac/iOS developers buy Mac hardware.
modeless 6y ago
I would bet that the median developer in the developer program doesn't sell enough on the App Store to recoup the cost of a mid-range MacBook Pro every 3-5 years and an iPhone every other year and the developer program annual fee.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
> If you write an app that you can sell on the app store to 860 people for $5 fwiw, that's an incredibly hard feat that most people don't ever accomplish. Even "it's just 16 work-weeks at minimum wage" would have been a better demo.

threeseed 6y ago

> And they make every developer buy a Mac No. You just need to be able to run OSX. For the last 6 months I've been running OSX on my X299/10980xe desktop using OpenCore. And it is far along enough now that you can run it on a range of PC equipment including AMD. And Apple has said on a number of occasions that provided you don't sell these Hackintosh desktops they fully support you playing around with OSX this way.

modeless 6y ago
This is illegal and I am skeptical that Apple has officially endorsed breaking their EULA.
- threeseed 6y ago
  It's a breach of the EULA which is very different from being illegal. And Craig Federighi has talked on quite a few occasions about supporting the hacking culture within OSX. Which is why Apple never went after Hackintosh like they could have e.g. by enforcing SIP. There are hundreds of Github projects and websites right now detailing how to setup a Hackintosh Mac and not once has anyone ever received a cease and desist.
  - modeless 6y ago
    It's breach of contract and copyright infringement among other things, so it is illegal. Not taking every opportunity to enforce the EULA is not the same thing as condoning breaking it. If Apple actually wanted to support hackintoshes they could change the EULA, but they never will.
    - threeseed 6y ago
      If the VP of Engineering publicly states it's okay I will take his word for it. And it's definitely not clear depending on your country whether an EULA is enforceable or not. And the reason it's not permitted in the EULA is because it would allow commercial competitors to build Hackintosh Macs which nearly destroyed the company during the Power Computing era.

gerash 6y ago

This upfront payment from the developer might have the side effect of weeding out all but those who are heavily invested in their iOS app. Ensuring the apps there are not hobby or side projects and are maintained and supported by full-time devs. That said, I wouldn't lock myself into that ecosystem with all those upfront costs and restrictive terms where Apple benefits much more from the devs than the other way round.