4 ms·

> Many a company is upset that they have no leverage in a business deal and want to courts to hand it to them. I think Epic does actually have a lot of leverag

by beaner 6y ago

> Many a company is upset that they have no leverage in a business deal and want to courts to hand it to them. I think Epic does actually have a lot of leverage. They have clout. They're a popular, widely respected company and founder. They could easily organize a strike, where large companies frustrated by this exploitative fee all pull their apps and publicly say "move to Android" or something. Probably the fear of such a strike itself would lead to negotiations. It would just be embarrassing. Apple would not want to be the phone without any of the apps that people want. Who would buy that? And it doesn't matter that Android currently has the same fees, because they just copy Apple and would also change after such a strike wins out. It's not just the companies though. I've heard others online say "the company doesn't have to sue, there's probably a free market solution," 90% of the people I know shout BAD TAKE! and assume that it must/should be decided in the courts. The saddest part to me is just the total lack of creativity. There is a way to do it without suing and it would probably even be more impactful, because Apple would know that it is wrong when it loses. Rather than simply feeling that it has to comply with a law, it would know that developers themselves have negotiating power and there is a reasonable point of exploitation that Apple has long since passed. I wish the Epic guy would consider this.

vr46 6y ago
The tactic is not very good at all. Respect and popularity doesn't get you much further than inside the front door in business, it certainly doesn't get you free money. It is quite sad to see this happen, because they had a great relationship at some point, Infinity Blade was an outstanding series and mutually beneficial. I also can't believe that all of us give s shit about this issue too and we're here discussing it.
- beaner 6y ago
  I think we're pretty far off on our interpretations here, and you don't explain why you think the tactic isn't good. Epic is not asking for free money. And they wouldn't be asking for free help, either. This is clearly an issue that is impactful to other large companies in the app store, and they would simply be coming together to negotiate rather than stranded on their own. Hacker news is full of developers, that's part of the reason people care about this issue. Epic's problem could be our problem, too. Nobody wants to be exploited.
  - vr46 6y ago
    Well, I have suggested that Epic have no leverage, several times, and this appears to be true. They violated a contract, threw mud, and filed a lawsuit, all on their own, without any signs of getting developers on board to the cause or having anything of significant value (apparently) that might persuade Apple to back down. Escalating to mom is not an adult way to behave. This is a business fight about power, control and money. Positioning it as some moral crusade is disingenuous at best. I don’t love Apple’s policies, but Epic aren’t asking that Apple gives developers freedom, it’s asking that EPIC gets freedom to also run an App Store and take fees from developers. It’s literally writ large in Sweeney’s E-Mails to Apple in June: “Please confirm within two weeks if Apple agrees in principle to allow Epic to provide a competing App Store”
    - beaner 6y ago
      I think we might be talking past each other. When I say that Epic and the founder have leverage, I do not mean against Apple in a lawsuit. I mean that they have leverage in the community because they make great products and have been making them for a long time, they are reputable and liked in their community and in the tech and business world. When you say "escalating to mom," it isn't clear to me if you're criticizing Epic's lawsuit, in which case I am in agreement with you and criticizing the same thing - or if you're criticizing my suggestion to go on strike, which I think would be the opposite of "escalating to mom." It would instead be gathering your friends in unison against a bully and stating plainly, without appeal to law or to force, that there is no mutual agreement in your interactions and that you want new terms to your relationship. I also disagree that there is no moral argument to be made here. The point is that it should not matter what Epic's particular motivations are, because they're borne from the same frustrations and feeling of unfairness that all other developers here are in a position to one day find themselves. If Epic is acting strictly selfishly, a win for them is still a win for everyone else. To interpret these events in good faith is to put yourself in their shoes - not to require them to fight for you for it to be just. As far as I've heard, Epic is not asking to be able to charge developers, they want to sell their own things in their own game at their own prices. There aren't any third parties involved in that so I'm not sure where you got that part from. It's one thing to say that you think a strike would fail, it's another to say that it shouldn't be attempted. For someone so rigorously defending Apple on ostensibly free-market grounds, you're stopping short of going all the way and accepting a free-market response to their high prices. Your defense is selective, and my interpretation of such selectivity is that you yourself do not have conviction when it comes to how markets should operate or what are just actions inside a free market, but simply an emotional defense of a trillion dollar corporation who makes nice products that you like.

by beaner 6y ago

vr46 6y ago

The tactic is not very good at all. Respect and popularity doesn't get you much further than inside the front door in business, it certainly doesn't get you free money. It is quite sad to see this happen, because they had a great relationship at some point, Infinity Blade was an outstanding series and mutually beneficial. I also can't believe that all of us give s shit about this issue too and we're here discussing it.

beaner 6y ago
I think we're pretty far off on our interpretations here, and you don't explain why you think the tactic isn't good. Epic is not asking for free money. And they wouldn't be asking for free help, either. This is clearly an issue that is impactful to other large companies in the app store, and they would simply be coming together to negotiate rather than stranded on their own. Hacker news is full of developers, that's part of the reason people care about this issue. Epic's problem could be our problem, too. Nobody wants to be exploited.
- vr46 6y ago
  Well, I have suggested that Epic have no leverage, several times, and this appears to be true. They violated a contract, threw mud, and filed a lawsuit, all on their own, without any signs of getting developers on board to the cause or having anything of significant value (apparently) that might persuade Apple to back down. Escalating to mom is not an adult way to behave. This is a business fight about power, control and money. Positioning it as some moral crusade is disingenuous at best. I don’t love Apple’s policies, but Epic aren’t asking that Apple gives developers freedom, it’s asking that EPIC gets freedom to also run an App Store and take fees from developers. It’s literally writ large in Sweeney’s E-Mails to Apple in June: “Please confirm within two weeks if Apple agrees in principle to allow Epic to provide a competing App Store”
  - beaner 6y ago
    I think we might be talking past each other. When I say that Epic and the founder have leverage, I do not mean against Apple in a lawsuit. I mean that they have leverage in the community because they make great products and have been making them for a long time, they are reputable and liked in their community and in the tech and business world. When you say "escalating to mom," it isn't clear to me if you're criticizing Epic's lawsuit, in which case I am in agreement with you and criticizing the same thing - or if you're criticizing my suggestion to go on strike, which I think would be the opposite of "escalating to mom." It would instead be gathering your friends in unison against a bully and stating plainly, without appeal to law or to force, that there is no mutual agreement in your interactions and that you want new terms to your relationship. I also disagree that there is no moral argument to be made here. The point is that it should not matter what Epic's particular motivations are, because they're borne from the same frustrations and feeling of unfairness that all other developers here are in a position to one day find themselves. If Epic is acting strictly selfishly, a win for them is still a win for everyone else. To interpret these events in good faith is to put yourself in their shoes - not to require them to fight for you for it to be just. As far as I've heard, Epic is not asking to be able to charge developers, they want to sell their own things in their own game at their own prices. There aren't any third parties involved in that so I'm not sure where you got that part from. It's one thing to say that you think a strike would fail, it's another to say that it shouldn't be attempted. For someone so rigorously defending Apple on ostensibly free-market grounds, you're stopping short of going all the way and accepting a free-market response to their high prices. Your defense is selective, and my interpretation of such selectivity is that you yourself do not have conviction when it comes to how markets should operate or what are just actions inside a free market, but simply an emotional defense of a trillion dollar corporation who makes nice products that you like.