3 ms·

Apple started it.

monkin 6y ago
Nice joke.
oneplane 6y ago
I don't think Apple had such a model with the Pipin game console, or a successful or global one at that. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo do as an example. Stating that they are the first is just incorrect. One could perhaps state that they are making the most profit out of it. But unless we take a stance on profit being bad I'm wondering why this needs to be a hot topic at all.
- forrestthewoods 6y ago
  I think Apple did start the 30% cut? Or at least standardized it. iTunes 0.99 songs is the first place I remember 30% digital cut being a thing. That actually made sense because credit card processing fees were 0.25 + ~3%. So hey, yeah, 30% seems fair as processing fees will be 28 cents. However when digital goods sell for $10 or $60 a 30% tax on top of a 60 cent or $2 processing fee is all of a sudden not so reasonable.
  - ratww 6y ago
    I believe their point is that Game consoles have been doing the same thing for decades, which you might or might not see as being the same thing as the AppStore does. There's also Steam and some other game stores too (although I'm not sure if he's referring to that).
    - forrestthewoods 6y ago
      His point is wrong. iTunes store came out April 2003. Steam came out September 2003. Xbox launched Nov 2001, but Xbox Live Arcade didn't launch until Nov 2004. Digital sales of game console games didn't become a major thing until after 2010. I shipped a $15 digital-only XBLA game on X360 in 2010. People thought we were crazy to go digital-only. The historical economics of video game physical distribution is very very different. A 30% digital cut was a massive improvement. Physical manufacturing, storage, distribution, brick and mortar middle men, platform fee added up to well over 50%. So a 30% digital cut was much better. Digital is now the majority of sales, but that is a very recent development. Reasonable minds can debate and disagree over what digital cut would be considered "fair". In a healthy, competitive market we wouldn't have to debate "fair". The market would decide. The cost of digital distribution has massively shrunk as technologies have progressed from specialty to commodity. The fact that the digital tax has been the exact same for 20 years is clear evidence that it is not subject to market forces. Whether it should or shouldn't be is yet another question.
      - ratww 6y ago
        Sorry, their whole point was not about digital sales or the 30% number, but more about the fact that console manufacturers have been making virtually all their money by charging a markup from game makers since the eighties (remember that consoles themselves normally sell at a loss). Once again, you might see it as being the same or not as what Apple does.
nojokes 6y ago
You can hate me as much you like but there was nothing there before Apple that created this kind of control over arbitrary applications that you can run on computers. Let this settle.
- oneplane 6y ago
  Sure there was. Remember cartridges for the game consoles? Or the clipper chip? (mostly about data but still a central form of control) Or HDCP. Or CSME which has PAVP. AGESA has a similar thing. Or the ACM validated by the ROM in all Intel CPUs. You can't even load an OS before you get it allowed by them. I think you meant to say: not directly visible by the user at the scale in terms of single-vendor profits. But that's a different thing which needs different treatment. Either antitrust laws or new laws will have something to say about that, because it boils down to 'power' that is currently legal as-is. You can be emotional about it, but that doesn't help the discussion.

Apple started it.

Nice joke.

I don't think Apple had such a model with the Pipin game console, or a successful or global one at that. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo do as an example. Stating that they are the first is just incorrect. One could perhaps state that they are making the most profit out of it. But unless we take a stance on profit being bad I'm wondering why this needs to be a hot topic at all.

forrestthewoods 6y ago
I think Apple did start the 30% cut? Or at least standardized it. iTunes 0.99 songs is the first place I remember 30% digital cut being a thing. That actually made sense because credit card processing fees were 0.25 + ~3%. So hey, yeah, 30% seems fair as processing fees will be 28 cents. However when digital goods sell for $10 or $60 a 30% tax on top of a 60 cent or $2 processing fee is all of a sudden not so reasonable.
- ratww 6y ago
  I believe their point is that Game consoles have been doing the same thing for decades, which you might or might not see as being the same thing as the AppStore does. There's also Steam and some other game stores too (although I'm not sure if he's referring to that).
  - forrestthewoods 6y ago
    His point is wrong. iTunes store came out April 2003. Steam came out September 2003. Xbox launched Nov 2001, but Xbox Live Arcade didn't launch until Nov 2004. Digital sales of game console games didn't become a major thing until after 2010. I shipped a $15 digital-only XBLA game on X360 in 2010. People thought we were crazy to go digital-only. The historical economics of video game physical distribution is very very different. A 30% digital cut was a massive improvement. Physical manufacturing, storage, distribution, brick and mortar middle men, platform fee added up to well over 50%. So a 30% digital cut was much better. Digital is now the majority of sales, but that is a very recent development. Reasonable minds can debate and disagree over what digital cut would be considered "fair". In a healthy, competitive market we wouldn't have to debate "fair". The market would decide. The cost of digital distribution has massively shrunk as technologies have progressed from specialty to commodity. The fact that the digital tax has been the exact same for 20 years is clear evidence that it is not subject to market forces. Whether it should or shouldn't be is yet another question.
    - ratww 6y ago
      Sorry, their whole point was not about digital sales or the 30% number, but more about the fact that console manufacturers have been making virtually all their money by charging a markup from game makers since the eighties (remember that consoles themselves normally sell at a loss). Once again, you might see it as being the same or not as what Apple does.

nojokes 6y ago

You can hate me as much you like but there was nothing there before Apple that created this kind of control over arbitrary applications that you can run on computers. Let this settle.

oneplane 6y ago
Sure there was. Remember cartridges for the game consoles? Or the clipper chip? (mostly about data but still a central form of control) Or HDCP. Or CSME which has PAVP. AGESA has a similar thing. Or the ACM validated by the ROM in all Intel CPUs. You can't even load an OS before you get it allowed by them. I think you meant to say: not directly visible by the user at the scale in terms of single-vendor profits. But that's a different thing which needs different treatment. Either antitrust laws or new laws will have something to say about that, because it boils down to 'power' that is currently legal as-is. You can be emotional about it, but that doesn't help the discussion.