10 ms·

This Is What Your Unsolicited Advice Sounds Like

69 points by bmcn2020 6y ago

zenincognito 6y ago
The drowning person really hit home for me. This is what most blog posts on startup world sound like trying to teach you something...
yummypaint 6y ago
Paywalled (?)
- Fiveplus 6y ago
  It's a series of images and I'm choosing not to rehost them. Here's [1] the direct links, hopefully it opens for you. [1] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406669322964f142b45249/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/1_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406669322964f142b45249/... [2] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f4066699a557880d973bc91/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/2_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f4066699a557880d973bc91/... [3] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667d1dbd65a6a995d23/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/3_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667d1dbd65a6a995d23/... [4] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667dcb11d2009b4d0f1/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/4_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667dcb11d2009b4d0f1/... [5] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667165d4d7af1f9bd6f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/5_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667165d4d7af1f9bd6f/...
  - andai 6y ago
    To clarify, the article contains only the images and nothing else -- not even captions.
hprotagonist 6y ago
an old and true complaint. What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
4ad 6y ago
No, this is what bad advice looks like, solicited or not. Good advice is rare, and in my experience unsolicited advice is neither higher nor lower quality than solicited advice. This is of course anecdotal.
roflc0ptic 6y ago
There’s this concept called “catastrophizing”, where basically you take whatever situation you’re in and project it out to worst case, and then feel anxious because there’s a looming catastrophe. E.g. you and your partner have a disagreement about housework. This then gets projected to worst case - they’ll never carry their weight/stop trying to micromanage my behavior, ergo I don’t know if this relationship can work. This comic seems aimed at tone-deaf people trying to get others to stop catastrophizing, and there’s a whole lot to be said for validating others’ experience (life is inescapably and terribly painful) and not trying to cram zen shit down people’s throats when they’re suffering. It’s not helpful. In addition to that, unless you’re literally falling off a cliff, falling off of a cliff is a disempowering metaphor - it’s straight catastrophizing. If you’re literally and inescapably about to get hit by a semi truck, well. Why shouldn’t you focus on what you can control? Why not think warm thoughts about the people you love before you die? Our brains generate lots of crazy, irrational things when we’re in pain. That’s inescapable - we don’t really control our thoughts. We do get to reality test them and choose whether or not to believe those thoughts, though.
- free_rms 6y ago
  There's people out there with a lot of economic insecurity plus kids with no school right now, it's not 'catastrophizing' for them to feel like they're drowning.
  - lhuser123 6y ago
    Exactly. Sometimes the catastrophe is real. And is difficult for outsiders to understand the magnitude of it.
- katzgrau 6y ago
  That's really what Stoicism is all about - control what you can, accept what you cannot. That doesn't mean that you will be immune from suffering, but it frames our problem in a rational way and sometimes makes them more tolerable. People have been thinking about approaches to the same everyday problems for thousands of years.
- 6y ago
codemonkey-zeta 6y ago
I dislike this attitude. The idea is to convince people that unsolicited (mental health) advice is pointless and the behavior change the author would like to see is for people to stop giving these clichéd wisdoms. But that's not a universal position. Personally I've benefited immensely from exactly this kind of unsolicited advice, especially at a younger age, and it really did help me. What this kind of work suggests is an attitude of, "My problems are so [explitive] huge that you can't possibly understand so don't even bother trying to help me". Well maybe you are the unlucky bastard with 6-sigma problems, but more than likely you're actually an average person with average problems, and should be grateful for the average words of encouragement (because that's really what these clichés are, they don't actually care if you take up yoga, they just want you to know that they're encouraging you) from your average friends and family.
- _wldu 6y ago
  While I agree with you, I also know that sometimes, people just want to talk and they just want you to listen to them. They don't want your advice and they don't want you to 'fix' their problems. Just listen to them.
  - ianai 6y ago
    More than that, sometimes looking for a fix becomes the act of perpetuating a problem. If can act as a stop point away from searching for deeper understanding of the problem and thus proper response. But that’s probably just for simpler or longer term problems than falling off a cliff or an oncoming train. There’s a lot of suffering in the world - especially right now. The universe itself can be especially cruel, for that matter. So personally I try to be kind and generous when I can.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Understanding this point has significantly improved my relationship with my wife, but honestly - I cannot comprehend the mindset. It feels like a fundamental difference in world processing. For me, the quickest and surest way to reduce anxiety about some problem is to find candidate solutions. I don't even have to act on them, just knowing that there's a possible path out is enough for me to stop worrying (and sometimes do nothing, and then the problem solves itself, because it was never that big in the first place). But then it seems that a good chunk of the population just wants to have their anxiety validated (and their "catastrophizing", per the other comment in the thread). Which I guess would be fine, if it made their anxiety go away. But it doesn't.
bluntfang 6y ago
man this is a bad...comic? It seems like the author has gone through a lot, but I bet they haven't been in any of the life threatening situations they portray, and I think equating mental health crises to imminent doom is doing a disservice.
- Rilfeu 6y ago
  Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That sounds pretty serious if you ask me. I do understand what you're trying to say. But sometimes the threat is imminent but you cannot see it, and many people will not talk openly about this to others. Somebody being dismissive of your problems can be exactly like person pushing you off a cliff. [1] - https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/does-depression-increase-risk-of-suicide/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abus...
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    >Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That sounds pretty serious if you ask me. I do, thanks for reminding me! I guess this comic is a portraying someone who has attempted suicide or is crying for help via suicide then? It would be nice to have that clarification. I think it's disingenuous to equate death with people who aren't facing a life or death situation, like suicide.
waihtis 6y ago
There seems to be some new culture where it’s OK or even celebrated to answer to good intentions with snarky hostility. If the advice isn’t to your liking, let it slide right off you. It will not make you feel better if you berate someone who’s ultimately trying to help you.
- jowsie 6y ago
  In my experience the person giving the unwanted, heard a million times before advice isn't doing it because they actually want to help. They just want to feel good about themselves.
  - username90 6y ago
    How do you know, is that why you give advice? I think people really want to help so they give the advice they know. However since most humans are pretty simple and similar the advice they give will usually be the same advice everyone else gives.
    - Rilfeu 6y ago
      I can tell you with certainty, many people, at least people close to me didn't have good intentions when giving advice. Or even if they did have good intentions, they told me the completely wrong things. When somebody tells you things like this, you feel like that person didn't take time to understand how you are feeling, they didn't consider what to tell you to actually help. This can amplify your feeling of loneliness and helplessness. It was very hard for me to accept that I cannot count on anyone in my life to help me and that the only person I can rely on in my life is me. These situations are very, very hard to navigate if you didn't go through these issues yourself, so better just not give any advice and just try to listen. I even had people tell me outright dangerous things, like telling me to stop taking medication. People who never had depression, had no contact with psychology except in high school told me this kind of advice. Even though I am certain some of the people who told me this wanted the best of me, quitting meds can have a wide array of unexpected effects, and even if the meds are not effective, this is still definitely a bad advice. Not to mention that meds actually helped me a lot.
6510 6y ago
In the first image the woman was burned for murdering yoga practitioners. In the second image the guy pushed his wife in front of a truck for endlessly micromanaging him. In the 3rd image the guy had enough of her negativity and pushed her off the cliff. In the 4th image the couple agreed to cash in on the life insurance. In the 5th image the woman is years to late with her unsolicited advice but she finally speaks her mind.
dougmwne 6y ago
I feel like the advice (ahem) to not give unsolicited advice is mostly relevant to the workplace. That's the situation when often the most savvy move is to disengage from a person who doesn't "get it" and look to how you can protect yourself. Selfishly speaking, giving advice at work can go bad for you several ways. Maybe they hear your advice, but now you're getting involved and taking responsibility for a sinking situation that might not be your problem to deal with. Maybe they bristle at being told what to do and you damage the relationship without actually helping. Maybe there is a personal component to the situation (one that you, a coworker will never get to learn about) and your advice will come off as incredibly tone deaf and clueless. Maybe it's in your interest to let your competition fail so you look all the better. And for the record, while I think this is a common attitude, I will always be grateful for advice at work and will put myself at political risk if I think I can really help another person. Life is too short to treat others like shit. In the personal world where we love our family and our friends, you're damn right I'm going to give advice. And if we have to get angry at each other, talk past each other until we come to a better understanding of each others point of views, well that's the mess and the beauty of real human connection. I'll end with an example. Someone in my boss's professional circle once had breath that smelled like poop. Everyone talked about this person behind their back, made litte gagging noises and mean jokes. No one ever said anything, because it's safest not to get involved. My boss got the guy's home address and wrote an anonymous letter. Said, very nicely, that people can notice and while maybe this person was already aware or had tried everything, a doctor's appointment could be in order to talk over options or diet changes if they hadn't already. And you know what? From then onwards, that person had good breath. This is a cold and terrible world if we don't take care of each other.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
See, I can absolutely see myself in that first image as the person saying you should try yoga -- because that's exactly how I slipped the ropes tying me to the burning stake and didn't burn to death. But there's no getting people to see that because they will see it when they believe it and their position is they will believe it when they see it. "The key is in the safe."
bmcn2020 6y ago
I think one thing that people may have missed here -- at least for the first four images -- the advice-givers are in a position to help the sufferers, but they aren't actually helping. they're just giving platitudes, vague, modern, empty advice that can apply to anyone at any time, regardless of their situations. But in these particular situations, the sufferers need actual, physical help, not just bland words.

69 points by bmcn2020 6y ago

The drowning person really hit home for me. This is what most blog posts on startup world sound like trying to teach you something...

yummypaint 6y ago

Paywalled (?)

Fiveplus 6y ago
It's a series of images and I'm choosing not to rehost them. Here's [1] the direct links, hopefully it opens for you. [1] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406669322964f142b45249/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/1_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406669322964f142b45249/... [2] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f4066699a557880d973bc91/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/2_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f4066699a557880d973bc91/... [3] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667d1dbd65a6a995d23/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/3_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667d1dbd65a6a995d23/... [4] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667dcb11d2009b4d0f1/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/4_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667dcb11d2009b4d0f1/... [5] https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667165d4d7af1f9bd6f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/5_lobanova_sounds.png https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f406667165d4d7af1f9bd6f/...
- andai 6y ago
  To clarify, the article contains only the images and nothing else -- not even captions.

hprotagonist 6y ago

an old and true complaint. What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

4ad 6y ago

No, this is what bad advice looks like, solicited or not. Good advice is rare, and in my experience unsolicited advice is neither higher nor lower quality than solicited advice. This is of course anecdotal.

roflc0ptic 6y ago

There’s this concept called “catastrophizing”, where basically you take whatever situation you’re in and project it out to worst case, and then feel anxious because there’s a looming catastrophe. E.g. you and your partner have a disagreement about housework. This then gets projected to worst case - they’ll never carry their weight/stop trying to micromanage my behavior, ergo I don’t know if this relationship can work. This comic seems aimed at tone-deaf people trying to get others to stop catastrophizing, and there’s a whole lot to be said for validating others’ experience (life is inescapably and terribly painful) and not trying to cram zen shit down people’s throats when they’re suffering. It’s not helpful. In addition to that, unless you’re literally falling off a cliff, falling off of a cliff is a disempowering metaphor - it’s straight catastrophizing. If you’re literally and inescapably about to get hit by a semi truck, well. Why shouldn’t you focus on what you can control? Why not think warm thoughts about the people you love before you die? Our brains generate lots of crazy, irrational things when we’re in pain. That’s inescapable - we don’t really control our thoughts. We do get to reality test them and choose whether or not to believe those thoughts, though.

free_rms 6y ago
There's people out there with a lot of economic insecurity plus kids with no school right now, it's not 'catastrophizing' for them to feel like they're drowning.
- lhuser123 6y ago
  Exactly. Sometimes the catastrophe is real. And is difficult for outsiders to understand the magnitude of it.
katzgrau 6y ago
That's really what Stoicism is all about - control what you can, accept what you cannot. That doesn't mean that you will be immune from suffering, but it frames our problem in a rational way and sometimes makes them more tolerable. People have been thinking about approaches to the same everyday problems for thousands of years.
6y ago

codemonkey-zeta 6y ago

I dislike this attitude. The idea is to convince people that unsolicited (mental health) advice is pointless and the behavior change the author would like to see is for people to stop giving these clichéd wisdoms. But that's not a universal position. Personally I've benefited immensely from exactly this kind of unsolicited advice, especially at a younger age, and it really did help me. What this kind of work suggests is an attitude of, "My problems are so [explitive] huge that you can't possibly understand so don't even bother trying to help me". Well maybe you are the unlucky bastard with 6-sigma problems, but more than likely you're actually an average person with average problems, and should be grateful for the average words of encouragement (because that's really what these clichés are, they don't actually care if you take up yoga, they just want you to know that they're encouraging you) from your average friends and family.

_wldu 6y ago
While I agree with you, I also know that sometimes, people just want to talk and they just want you to listen to them. They don't want your advice and they don't want you to 'fix' their problems. Just listen to them.
- ianai 6y ago
  More than that, sometimes looking for a fix becomes the act of perpetuating a problem. If can act as a stop point away from searching for deeper understanding of the problem and thus proper response. But that’s probably just for simpler or longer term problems than falling off a cliff or an oncoming train. There’s a lot of suffering in the world - especially right now. The universe itself can be especially cruel, for that matter. So personally I try to be kind and generous when I can.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Understanding this point has significantly improved my relationship with my wife, but honestly - I cannot comprehend the mindset. It feels like a fundamental difference in world processing. For me, the quickest and surest way to reduce anxiety about some problem is to find candidate solutions. I don't even have to act on them, just knowing that there's a possible path out is enough for me to stop worrying (and sometimes do nothing, and then the problem solves itself, because it was never that big in the first place). But then it seems that a good chunk of the population just wants to have their anxiety validated (and their "catastrophizing", per the other comment in the thread). Which I guess would be fine, if it made their anxiety go away. But it doesn't.

bluntfang 6y ago

man this is a bad...comic? It seems like the author has gone through a lot, but I bet they haven't been in any of the life threatening situations they portray, and I think equating mental health crises to imminent doom is doing a disservice.

Rilfeu 6y ago
Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That sounds pretty serious if you ask me. I do understand what you're trying to say. But sometimes the threat is imminent but you cannot see it, and many people will not talk openly about this to others. Somebody being dismissive of your problems can be exactly like person pushing you off a cliff. [1] - https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/does-depression-increase-risk-of-suicide/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abus...
- bluntfang 6y ago
  >Do you know that a person can commit suicide due to mental health[1]? That sounds pretty serious if you ask me. I do, thanks for reminding me! I guess this comic is a portraying someone who has attempted suicide or is crying for help via suicide then? It would be nice to have that clarification. I think it's disingenuous to equate death with people who aren't facing a life or death situation, like suicide.

waihtis 6y ago

There seems to be some new culture where it’s OK or even celebrated to answer to good intentions with snarky hostility. If the advice isn’t to your liking, let it slide right off you. It will not make you feel better if you berate someone who’s ultimately trying to help you.

jowsie 6y ago
In my experience the person giving the unwanted, heard a million times before advice isn't doing it because they actually want to help. They just want to feel good about themselves.
- username90 6y ago
  How do you know, is that why you give advice? I think people really want to help so they give the advice they know. However since most humans are pretty simple and similar the advice they give will usually be the same advice everyone else gives.
  - Rilfeu 6y ago
    I can tell you with certainty, many people, at least people close to me didn't have good intentions when giving advice. Or even if they did have good intentions, they told me the completely wrong things. When somebody tells you things like this, you feel like that person didn't take time to understand how you are feeling, they didn't consider what to tell you to actually help. This can amplify your feeling of loneliness and helplessness. It was very hard for me to accept that I cannot count on anyone in my life to help me and that the only person I can rely on in my life is me. These situations are very, very hard to navigate if you didn't go through these issues yourself, so better just not give any advice and just try to listen. I even had people tell me outright dangerous things, like telling me to stop taking medication. People who never had depression, had no contact with psychology except in high school told me this kind of advice. Even though I am certain some of the people who told me this wanted the best of me, quitting meds can have a wide array of unexpected effects, and even if the meds are not effective, this is still definitely a bad advice. Not to mention that meds actually helped me a lot.

6510 6y ago

In the first image the woman was burned for murdering yoga practitioners. In the second image the guy pushed his wife in front of a truck for endlessly micromanaging him. In the 3rd image the guy had enough of her negativity and pushed her off the cliff. In the 4th image the couple agreed to cash in on the life insurance. In the 5th image the woman is years to late with her unsolicited advice but she finally speaks her mind.

dougmwne 6y ago

I feel like the advice (ahem) to not give unsolicited advice is mostly relevant to the workplace. That's the situation when often the most savvy move is to disengage from a person who doesn't "get it" and look to how you can protect yourself. Selfishly speaking, giving advice at work can go bad for you several ways. Maybe they hear your advice, but now you're getting involved and taking responsibility for a sinking situation that might not be your problem to deal with. Maybe they bristle at being told what to do and you damage the relationship without actually helping. Maybe there is a personal component to the situation (one that you, a coworker will never get to learn about) and your advice will come off as incredibly tone deaf and clueless. Maybe it's in your interest to let your competition fail so you look all the better. And for the record, while I think this is a common attitude, I will always be grateful for advice at work and will put myself at political risk if I think I can really help another person. Life is too short to treat others like shit. In the personal world where we love our family and our friends, you're damn right I'm going to give advice. And if we have to get angry at each other, talk past each other until we come to a better understanding of each others point of views, well that's the mess and the beauty of real human connection. I'll end with an example. Someone in my boss's professional circle once had breath that smelled like poop. Everyone talked about this person behind their back, made litte gagging noises and mean jokes. No one ever said anything, because it's safest not to get involved. My boss got the guy's home address and wrote an anonymous letter. Said, very nicely, that people can notice and while maybe this person was already aware or had tried everything, a doctor's appointment could be in order to talk over options or diet changes if they hadn't already. And you know what? From then onwards, that person had good breath. This is a cold and terrible world if we don't take care of each other.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

See, I can absolutely see myself in that first image as the person saying you should try yoga -- because that's exactly how I slipped the ropes tying me to the burning stake and didn't burn to death. But there's no getting people to see that because they will see it when they believe it and their position is they will believe it when they see it. "The key is in the safe."

bmcn2020 6y ago

I think one thing that people may have missed here -- at least for the first four images -- the advice-givers are in a position to help the sufferers, but they aren't actually helping. they're just giving platitudes, vague, modern, empty advice that can apply to anyone at any time, regardless of their situations. But in these particular situations, the sufferers need actual, physical help, not just bland words.