4 ms·

The next thing I'd like to see is - are people born or made this way? and can they change?

Viliam1234 6y ago
As a first approximation, people don't change. If they do, it is usually because they must; because the situation changed in a way that makes their previous behavior impossible. People don't change because you ask them nicely to. They also don't change just because the consequences of their behavior hurt other people. They might change if the consequences hurt them.
- chadcmulligan 6y ago
  indeed, I was thinking more nature vs nurture - are these traits baked into people when they are born? do events shape them etc. an age old question I suppose, though a measure perhaps makes it easier to trace things through someones life. Edit: I suppose we could measure the value of D over generations and see if it's heritable.
- jariel 6y ago
  People definitely change as they are children though, which is the point. I believe that entitlement, narcissism, selfish behaviours are 'conveyed' just as much as anything else. I had a roommate in college, who would brag that his father, owner of several cab badges, would beat the smack out of drivers he thought was ripping him off. This is a perspective said roommate will probably carry on.
  - chadcmulligan 6y ago
    indeed, but if that same person wasn't raised comparatively wealthy would he still be a jerk? I suspect yes - a counter example, many people are raised wealthy but aren't narcissistic, and I know of people with narcissistic traits that aren't raised particularly wealthy, and indeed are comparatively poor and yet those traits come out. They have brothers and sisters that aren't narcissistic and yet given the same environment etc they behave like so.
    - jariel 6y ago
      So you're getting at 'wealth<->narcissism' which I'm not sure is necessarily correlated. I don't know. I was getting at 'nature vs. nurture' - and there is definitely a 'learned' aspect to narcissism etc..
      - chadcmulligan 6y ago
        it is interesting - perhaps a sense of entitlement I was thinking - more likely to be from wealth, but not necessarily.
        jariel 6y ago
        Yes actually that's probably true. But prisons are full of narcissistic personality disorder types as well. Most wealthy people score very high on levels of conscientiousness - they generally behave well, not recklessly. But that includes doctors, etc. - not so much the bankers, executives and people that can get into situations of real leverage and power. It's
        chadcmulligan 6y ago
        > Most wealthy people score very high on levels of conscientiousness references?
0134340 6y ago
I think if you take the view of modern genetics, admittedly I'm a layman on this topic, this is an often useless, antiquated (nature vs nurture) reductive trope. Despite what genetics may code for, our actions are a sum of intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Genetics being one, epigenetics potentially another as well as upbringing, culture, diet and multitudes of other factors. Someone with psychopathy may produce positive societal results even to the benefit of himself sometimes if conditions favor such behavior although could very well go wrong given another upbringing. I think the implications of labeling these behaviors as "dark" can be a bit too reductionist and can turn into a literal witchhunt if we're not careful although they do provide some sort of utility in patterning human behavior. Edit: Relevant talk by Richard Sapolsky, if interested, which I happily post when I can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRYcSuyLiJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRYcSuyLiJk

As a first approximation, people don't change. If they do, it is usually because they must; because the situation changed in a way that makes their previous behavior impossible. People don't change because you ask them nicely to. They also don't change just because the consequences of their behavior hurt other people. They might change if the consequences hurt them.

chadcmulligan 6y ago
indeed, I was thinking more nature vs nurture - are these traits baked into people when they are born? do events shape them etc. an age old question I suppose, though a measure perhaps makes it easier to trace things through someones life. Edit: I suppose we could measure the value of D over generations and see if it's heritable.
jariel 6y ago
People definitely change as they are children though, which is the point. I believe that entitlement, narcissism, selfish behaviours are 'conveyed' just as much as anything else. I had a roommate in college, who would brag that his father, owner of several cab badges, would beat the smack out of drivers he thought was ripping him off. This is a perspective said roommate will probably carry on.
- chadcmulligan 6y ago
  indeed, but if that same person wasn't raised comparatively wealthy would he still be a jerk? I suspect yes - a counter example, many people are raised wealthy but aren't narcissistic, and I know of people with narcissistic traits that aren't raised particularly wealthy, and indeed are comparatively poor and yet those traits come out. They have brothers and sisters that aren't narcissistic and yet given the same environment etc they behave like so.
  - jariel 6y ago
    So you're getting at 'wealth<->narcissism' which I'm not sure is necessarily correlated. I don't know. I was getting at 'nature vs. nurture' - and there is definitely a 'learned' aspect to narcissism etc..
    - chadcmulligan 6y ago
      it is interesting - perhaps a sense of entitlement I was thinking - more likely to be from wealth, but not necessarily.
      - jariel 6y ago
        Yes actually that's probably true. But prisons are full of narcissistic personality disorder types as well. Most wealthy people score very high on levels of conscientiousness - they generally behave well, not recklessly. But that includes doctors, etc. - not so much the bankers, executives and people that can get into situations of real leverage and power. It's
        chadcmulligan 6y ago
        > Most wealthy people score very high on levels of conscientiousness references?

0134340 6y ago

I think if you take the view of modern genetics, admittedly I'm a layman on this topic, this is an often useless, antiquated (nature vs nurture) reductive trope. Despite what genetics may code for, our actions are a sum of intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Genetics being one, epigenetics potentially another as well as upbringing, culture, diet and multitudes of other factors. Someone with psychopathy may produce positive societal results even to the benefit of himself sometimes if conditions favor such behavior although could very well go wrong given another upbringing. I think the implications of labeling these behaviors as "dark" can be a bit too reductionist and can turn into a literal witchhunt if we're not careful although they do provide some sort of utility in patterning human behavior. Edit: Relevant talk by Richard Sapolsky, if interested, which I happily post when I can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRYcSuyLiJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRYcSuyLiJk