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Nietzsche's writing on "eternal return" helped me with similar thoughts. It gives life heaviness, as Kundera says in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. https:/

by aggie 6y ago

Nietzsche's writing on "eternal return" helped me with similar thoughts. It gives life heaviness, as Kundera says in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return Also, learning to "imagine Sisyphus happy." Easier said than done, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

audiodude 6y ago
Thanks for the links. I actually read the whole Sisyphus essay, but it didn't really inspire me. I think I'm probably an Existentialist to some degree, I believe that life has no inherent meaning or value and that we have to create for ourselves such meaning. But most days I'm just going through the motions and I'd rather tune out, or "drop out" as it were. Or as Weezer says "Why bother? It's gonna hurt me."
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Are you familiar with Epicureanism at all? It's not as popular these days as, say, Stoicism, but I found it's general tenets somewhat helpful for very similar thoughts. I'm also a bit of an Existentialist, so I agree that it's up to us to create our own meaning. But maybe that meaning can be just as simple as limiting our own suffering as much as possible, and finding the sustainable things that bring is happiness or enjoyment. The meaning we bring to our life doesn't necessarily need to be grand or far reaching. Anyway, that's sort of where I'm at right now. My personal philosophy is a super messy mix of Stoicism, Epicureanism, Existentialism, and Buddhism. Not particularly well thought out, but it's been useful lately for helping me carve out a little bit of happiness from this bizarre existence.
- keiferski 6y ago
  The "opposite" of Existentialism, if there is such a thing, might be the Japanese idea of shokunin or pure mastery of one's profession. In the West we'd probably call this craftsmanship: taking pride in the fundamentals of one's chosen profession and aiming to master it, not simply earn a living. It's an ideal that I've always found inspiring. Once you decide on your profession, you must immerse yourself in your work. - Jiro Ono https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can-teach-us-about-mastery-1a886f129df4 https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can... Phrased another way, the craftsmanship model narrows the boundaries of meaning, whereas the Existentialist one expands them to the infinite, or destroys them entirely. I have always been fascinated by all types of monomania, by persons wrapped up in a single idea; for the stricter the limits a man sets for himself, the more clearly he approaches the eternal. - Stefan Zweig
  - swader999 6y ago
    There is satisfaction in that. Not sure about happiness or joy and it's so easy to become dependent on external factors affecting the craft.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee -- zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music. "Ah, this is marvelous!" said Lord Wen-hui. "Imagine skill reaching such heights!" Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now -- now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint. "A good cook changes his knife once a year -- because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month -- because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room -- more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone. "However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until -- flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away." "Excellent!" said Lord Wen-hui. "I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!" http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm
    - 6y ago
Trasmatta 6y ago
Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by "it gives life heaviness"? Is the idea that if Eternal Return is true, you should live your life to its fullest because it will be repeated for eternity? If there was a thing as an eternal self I would find that idea terrifying rather than motivating, personally. But I tend to lean towards the concept of non-self. Even if the cosmology of the universe means my life will be repeated infinitely, there's no continuous "me" that experiences it. Just like how running the exact same instance of Conway's Game of Life a million times doesn't mean there's some essence that persists between each instantiation. So for me, that idea doesn't do much for me either way (but I may also misunderstand it). Maybe sometime in the vastness of infinity there will be another instantiation of "me", but I don't think there's any connection between that instance and the current one (besides the curious property of an identical life).
- aggie 6y ago
  This wikipedia section describes the idea better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being#Philosophical_underpinnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be... My personal takeaway is that, horrifying or not, you cannot escape life, whether by hiding from the world or suicide, you must embrace it, because you will always live your life and there is nothing else. Further, questions of free will aside, you should live the life you would want to live again and again. Let the weight be your guide. I think the alluring plausibility of eternal return helps sell the idea, but it's best to simply use the idea as a way to think about your attitude toward life, and not be too concerned whether it is a physical reality or not. I subscribe to pragmatism above all else.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Thank you! This is an interesting concept that I'll be thinking about for awhile, as it's tangential to things I've been thinking a lot about lately.
lcall 6y ago
For what it may be worth, I made a comment elsewhere in this discussion page (you could Ctrl-F for my username) about my belief that life indeed does not end at mortal death but is ongoing. Knowing stuff about that really helps relax about many subject, prioritize the things that do matter and make a difference for good, etc....

by aggie 6y ago

audiodude 6y ago

Thanks for the links. I actually read the whole Sisyphus essay, but it didn't really inspire me. I think I'm probably an Existentialist to some degree, I believe that life has no inherent meaning or value and that we have to create for ourselves such meaning. But most days I'm just going through the motions and I'd rather tune out, or "drop out" as it were. Or as Weezer says "Why bother? It's gonna hurt me."

Trasmatta 6y ago
Are you familiar with Epicureanism at all? It's not as popular these days as, say, Stoicism, but I found it's general tenets somewhat helpful for very similar thoughts. I'm also a bit of an Existentialist, so I agree that it's up to us to create our own meaning. But maybe that meaning can be just as simple as limiting our own suffering as much as possible, and finding the sustainable things that bring is happiness or enjoyment. The meaning we bring to our life doesn't necessarily need to be grand or far reaching. Anyway, that's sort of where I'm at right now. My personal philosophy is a super messy mix of Stoicism, Epicureanism, Existentialism, and Buddhism. Not particularly well thought out, but it's been useful lately for helping me carve out a little bit of happiness from this bizarre existence.
keiferski 6y ago
The "opposite" of Existentialism, if there is such a thing, might be the Japanese idea of shokunin or pure mastery of one's profession. In the West we'd probably call this craftsmanship: taking pride in the fundamentals of one's chosen profession and aiming to master it, not simply earn a living. It's an ideal that I've always found inspiring. Once you decide on your profession, you must immerse yourself in your work. - Jiro Ono https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can-teach-us-about-mastery-1a886f129df4 https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can... Phrased another way, the craftsmanship model narrows the boundaries of meaning, whereas the Existentialist one expands them to the infinite, or destroys them entirely. I have always been fascinated by all types of monomania, by persons wrapped up in a single idea; for the stricter the limits a man sets for himself, the more clearly he approaches the eternal. - Stefan Zweig
- swader999 6y ago
  There is satisfaction in that. Not sure about happiness or joy and it's so easy to become dependent on external factors affecting the craft.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee -- zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music. "Ah, this is marvelous!" said Lord Wen-hui. "Imagine skill reaching such heights!" Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now -- now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint. "A good cook changes his knife once a year -- because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month -- because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room -- more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone. "However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until -- flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away." "Excellent!" said Lord Wen-hui. "I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!" http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm
  - 6y ago

Trasmatta 6y ago

Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by "it gives life heaviness"? Is the idea that if Eternal Return is true, you should live your life to its fullest because it will be repeated for eternity? If there was a thing as an eternal self I would find that idea terrifying rather than motivating, personally. But I tend to lean towards the concept of non-self. Even if the cosmology of the universe means my life will be repeated infinitely, there's no continuous "me" that experiences it. Just like how running the exact same instance of Conway's Game of Life a million times doesn't mean there's some essence that persists between each instantiation. So for me, that idea doesn't do much for me either way (but I may also misunderstand it). Maybe sometime in the vastness of infinity there will be another instantiation of "me", but I don't think there's any connection between that instance and the current one (besides the curious property of an identical life).

aggie 6y ago
This wikipedia section describes the idea better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being#Philosophical_underpinnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be... My personal takeaway is that, horrifying or not, you cannot escape life, whether by hiding from the world or suicide, you must embrace it, because you will always live your life and there is nothing else. Further, questions of free will aside, you should live the life you would want to live again and again. Let the weight be your guide. I think the alluring plausibility of eternal return helps sell the idea, but it's best to simply use the idea as a way to think about your attitude toward life, and not be too concerned whether it is a physical reality or not. I subscribe to pragmatism above all else.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Thank you! This is an interesting concept that I'll be thinking about for awhile, as it's tangential to things I've been thinking a lot about lately.

lcall 6y ago

For what it may be worth, I made a comment elsewhere in this discussion page (you could Ctrl-F for my username) about my belief that life indeed does not end at mortal death but is ongoing. Knowing stuff about that really helps relax about many subject, prioritize the things that do matter and make a difference for good, etc....