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I'm simultaneously in a married relationship where children are off the table (by our choosing), and am hopelessly bored most of the time. It's interesting to c

I'm simultaneously in a married relationship where children are off the table (by our choosing), and am hopelessly bored most of the time. It's interesting to contrast these two facts. I think life is too long, because I don't believe in any afterlife and if I die today or 40 years from now, what's the difference? Just a bunch of pain and boredom all the way down from now until then.

aggie 6y ago
Nietzsche's writing on "eternal return" helped me with similar thoughts. It gives life heaviness, as Kundera says in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return Also, learning to "imagine Sisyphus happy." Easier said than done, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus
- audiodude 6y ago
  Thanks for the links. I actually read the whole Sisyphus essay, but it didn't really inspire me. I think I'm probably an Existentialist to some degree, I believe that life has no inherent meaning or value and that we have to create for ourselves such meaning. But most days I'm just going through the motions and I'd rather tune out, or "drop out" as it were. Or as Weezer says "Why bother? It's gonna hurt me."
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Are you familiar with Epicureanism at all? It's not as popular these days as, say, Stoicism, but I found it's general tenets somewhat helpful for very similar thoughts. I'm also a bit of an Existentialist, so I agree that it's up to us to create our own meaning. But maybe that meaning can be just as simple as limiting our own suffering as much as possible, and finding the sustainable things that bring is happiness or enjoyment. The meaning we bring to our life doesn't necessarily need to be grand or far reaching. Anyway, that's sort of where I'm at right now. My personal philosophy is a super messy mix of Stoicism, Epicureanism, Existentialism, and Buddhism. Not particularly well thought out, but it's been useful lately for helping me carve out a little bit of happiness from this bizarre existence.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    The "opposite" of Existentialism, if there is such a thing, might be the Japanese idea of shokunin or pure mastery of one's profession. In the West we'd probably call this craftsmanship: taking pride in the fundamentals of one's chosen profession and aiming to master it, not simply earn a living. It's an ideal that I've always found inspiring. Once you decide on your profession, you must immerse yourself in your work. - Jiro Ono https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can-teach-us-about-mastery-1a886f129df4 https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can... Phrased another way, the craftsmanship model narrows the boundaries of meaning, whereas the Existentialist one expands them to the infinite, or destroys them entirely. I have always been fascinated by all types of monomania, by persons wrapped up in a single idea; for the stricter the limits a man sets for himself, the more clearly he approaches the eternal. - Stefan Zweig
    - swader999 6y ago
      There is satisfaction in that. Not sure about happiness or joy and it's so easy to become dependent on external factors affecting the craft.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee -- zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music. "Ah, this is marvelous!" said Lord Wen-hui. "Imagine skill reaching such heights!" Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now -- now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint. "A good cook changes his knife once a year -- because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month -- because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room -- more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone. "However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until -- flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away." "Excellent!" said Lord Wen-hui. "I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!" http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by "it gives life heaviness"? Is the idea that if Eternal Return is true, you should live your life to its fullest because it will be repeated for eternity? If there was a thing as an eternal self I would find that idea terrifying rather than motivating, personally. But I tend to lean towards the concept of non-self. Even if the cosmology of the universe means my life will be repeated infinitely, there's no continuous "me" that experiences it. Just like how running the exact same instance of Conway's Game of Life a million times doesn't mean there's some essence that persists between each instantiation. So for me, that idea doesn't do much for me either way (but I may also misunderstand it). Maybe sometime in the vastness of infinity there will be another instantiation of "me", but I don't think there's any connection between that instance and the current one (besides the curious property of an identical life).
  - aggie 6y ago
    This wikipedia section describes the idea better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being#Philosophical_underpinnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be... My personal takeaway is that, horrifying or not, you cannot escape life, whether by hiding from the world or suicide, you must embrace it, because you will always live your life and there is nothing else. Further, questions of free will aside, you should live the life you would want to live again and again. Let the weight be your guide. I think the alluring plausibility of eternal return helps sell the idea, but it's best to simply use the idea as a way to think about your attitude toward life, and not be too concerned whether it is a physical reality or not. I subscribe to pragmatism above all else.
    - Trasmatta 6y ago
      Thank you! This is an interesting concept that I'll be thinking about for awhile, as it's tangential to things I've been thinking a lot about lately.
- lcall 6y ago
  For what it may be worth, I made a comment elsewhere in this discussion page (you could Ctrl-F for my username) about my belief that life indeed does not end at mortal death but is ongoing. Knowing stuff about that really helps relax about many subject, prioritize the things that do matter and make a difference for good, etc....
dazc 6y ago
Maybe explains why so many people in mid-life find refuge in alcohol?
- greggman3 6y ago
  If you or someone else here finds refuge in alcohol can you explain what it does for you that makes you find use it for refuge? I drink socially. Have been drunk a few times. I get nothing from alcohol. Clearly others get something out of it I don't. For me it's just a break from other drinks (tea, coffee, milk, juice, water) that happens to have a feeling I actually don't enjoy so much but sometimes tastes that I do enjoy.
  - bunfunton 6y ago
    Hey sure. So everybody is different right, here is my experience. On a normal day to day basis, my brain feels like it needs something. When I crack a beer, I feel better, funnier, happier, relaxed. My brain is getting something that it needs. So I crack another one. Pretty sure I'm drunk. It doesn't matter. I feel great. I'll pay for it in the morning but I'm living now. I can chug a beer in 5 seconds, it's a thirst but the thirst isn't for liquid it's for alcohol. The taste is so refreshing and quenches something deep inside, but it's never enough. I also like margaritas, ice cold ones with fresh tequila and lime juice. It hits the spot and gives me what I need. For the longest time I though it was just the deliciousness of the beer or the margarita, until I tried alcohol free alternatives. Totally different. It's the alcohol. This is the way that I'm wired. Don't get me started on weed. I am a weed junkie. Give me one puff and I'm derailed for 2 weeks smoking myself into a stupor. All these desires stopped when I found the right treatment for my ADHD, which is methamphetamine. Methamphetamine is the least harmful and most benign, beneficial drug for me. Less side effects and more effective than any other ADHD drugs. It removes all my addictions. Unfortunately I am treated like a criminal for taking this drug as prescribed here in the USA and am view with suspicion by everybody in healthcare. Quite ridiculus, because if I wanted to abuse it I would pay $50 on the street instead of $1000 out of pocket for the same amount in a nice prescription bottle. Using this platform to say our drug war is a complete failure and to legalize all drugs to help people.
swader999 6y ago
Had gotten to the same point at 35. Children turned the everyday mundane into new adventure.
silveroriole 6y ago
That’s pretty harsh to your wife, isn’t it? Your life with her is “just a bunch of pain and boredom”? It would make a difference to her if you die today or 40 years from now.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  So what now ? The one can't have genuine feelings because feeling something is harsh to others ?
shadowprofile77 6y ago
Start with the marriage. If no part of your life seems like more than a trudge towards the eventual grave, then this marriage can hardly be much of a joy. Get rid of it. Even if you fear the consequences, they will at least spice up your daily life enough to remove much of that seemingly sure boredom for a time. You will introduce something interesting: future options that no longer feel so predictable..
cthonicthulu 6y ago
One interesting thing I hear repeated from a lot of my friends is that having children somehow makes you very good at getting things done, which @pg alludes to in this post. You get very good at making things finite, because your child is a natural marker of time. If you are in a married relationship where children are off the table and you are hopelessly bored, what do you hope to get out of the marriage? I mean this sincerely. I know a lot of people for whom a married relationship with children off the table where you get the opportunity to be "hopelessly bored" is their idea of nirvana. No relationship drama, no children to manage, all the free time to take to travel or shared hobbies or shared life experiences. Perhaps I sense this may not be the case for you?

aggie 6y ago

Nietzsche's writing on "eternal return" helped me with similar thoughts. It gives life heaviness, as Kundera says in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return Also, learning to "imagine Sisyphus happy." Easier said than done, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

audiodude 6y ago
Thanks for the links. I actually read the whole Sisyphus essay, but it didn't really inspire me. I think I'm probably an Existentialist to some degree, I believe that life has no inherent meaning or value and that we have to create for ourselves such meaning. But most days I'm just going through the motions and I'd rather tune out, or "drop out" as it were. Or as Weezer says "Why bother? It's gonna hurt me."
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Are you familiar with Epicureanism at all? It's not as popular these days as, say, Stoicism, but I found it's general tenets somewhat helpful for very similar thoughts. I'm also a bit of an Existentialist, so I agree that it's up to us to create our own meaning. But maybe that meaning can be just as simple as limiting our own suffering as much as possible, and finding the sustainable things that bring is happiness or enjoyment. The meaning we bring to our life doesn't necessarily need to be grand or far reaching. Anyway, that's sort of where I'm at right now. My personal philosophy is a super messy mix of Stoicism, Epicureanism, Existentialism, and Buddhism. Not particularly well thought out, but it's been useful lately for helping me carve out a little bit of happiness from this bizarre existence.
- keiferski 6y ago
  The "opposite" of Existentialism, if there is such a thing, might be the Japanese idea of shokunin or pure mastery of one's profession. In the West we'd probably call this craftsmanship: taking pride in the fundamentals of one's chosen profession and aiming to master it, not simply earn a living. It's an ideal that I've always found inspiring. Once you decide on your profession, you must immerse yourself in your work. - Jiro Ono https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can-teach-us-about-mastery-1a886f129df4 https://medium.com/@alyjuma/shokunin-and-sushi-what-jiro-can... Phrased another way, the craftsmanship model narrows the boundaries of meaning, whereas the Existentialist one expands them to the infinite, or destroys them entirely. I have always been fascinated by all types of monomania, by persons wrapped up in a single idea; for the stricter the limits a man sets for himself, the more clearly he approaches the eternal. - Stefan Zweig
  - swader999 6y ago
    There is satisfaction in that. Not sure about happiness or joy and it's so easy to become dependent on external factors affecting the craft.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee -- zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music. "Ah, this is marvelous!" said Lord Wen-hui. "Imagine skill reaching such heights!" Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now -- now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint. "A good cook changes his knife once a year -- because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month -- because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room -- more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone. "However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until -- flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away." "Excellent!" said Lord Wen-hui. "I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!" http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/chuang-tzu.htm
Trasmatta 6y ago
Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by "it gives life heaviness"? Is the idea that if Eternal Return is true, you should live your life to its fullest because it will be repeated for eternity? If there was a thing as an eternal self I would find that idea terrifying rather than motivating, personally. But I tend to lean towards the concept of non-self. Even if the cosmology of the universe means my life will be repeated infinitely, there's no continuous "me" that experiences it. Just like how running the exact same instance of Conway's Game of Life a million times doesn't mean there's some essence that persists between each instantiation. So for me, that idea doesn't do much for me either way (but I may also misunderstand it). Maybe sometime in the vastness of infinity there will be another instantiation of "me", but I don't think there's any connection between that instance and the current one (besides the curious property of an identical life).
- aggie 6y ago
  This wikipedia section describes the idea better than I can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being#Philosophical_underpinnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be... My personal takeaway is that, horrifying or not, you cannot escape life, whether by hiding from the world or suicide, you must embrace it, because you will always live your life and there is nothing else. Further, questions of free will aside, you should live the life you would want to live again and again. Let the weight be your guide. I think the alluring plausibility of eternal return helps sell the idea, but it's best to simply use the idea as a way to think about your attitude toward life, and not be too concerned whether it is a physical reality or not. I subscribe to pragmatism above all else.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Thank you! This is an interesting concept that I'll be thinking about for awhile, as it's tangential to things I've been thinking a lot about lately.
lcall 6y ago
For what it may be worth, I made a comment elsewhere in this discussion page (you could Ctrl-F for my username) about my belief that life indeed does not end at mortal death but is ongoing. Knowing stuff about that really helps relax about many subject, prioritize the things that do matter and make a difference for good, etc....

dazc 6y ago

Maybe explains why so many people in mid-life find refuge in alcohol?

greggman3 6y ago
If you or someone else here finds refuge in alcohol can you explain what it does for you that makes you find use it for refuge? I drink socially. Have been drunk a few times. I get nothing from alcohol. Clearly others get something out of it I don't. For me it's just a break from other drinks (tea, coffee, milk, juice, water) that happens to have a feeling I actually don't enjoy so much but sometimes tastes that I do enjoy.
- bunfunton 6y ago
  Hey sure. So everybody is different right, here is my experience. On a normal day to day basis, my brain feels like it needs something. When I crack a beer, I feel better, funnier, happier, relaxed. My brain is getting something that it needs. So I crack another one. Pretty sure I'm drunk. It doesn't matter. I feel great. I'll pay for it in the morning but I'm living now. I can chug a beer in 5 seconds, it's a thirst but the thirst isn't for liquid it's for alcohol. The taste is so refreshing and quenches something deep inside, but it's never enough. I also like margaritas, ice cold ones with fresh tequila and lime juice. It hits the spot and gives me what I need. For the longest time I though it was just the deliciousness of the beer or the margarita, until I tried alcohol free alternatives. Totally different. It's the alcohol. This is the way that I'm wired. Don't get me started on weed. I am a weed junkie. Give me one puff and I'm derailed for 2 weeks smoking myself into a stupor. All these desires stopped when I found the right treatment for my ADHD, which is methamphetamine. Methamphetamine is the least harmful and most benign, beneficial drug for me. Less side effects and more effective than any other ADHD drugs. It removes all my addictions. Unfortunately I am treated like a criminal for taking this drug as prescribed here in the USA and am view with suspicion by everybody in healthcare. Quite ridiculus, because if I wanted to abuse it I would pay $50 on the street instead of $1000 out of pocket for the same amount in a nice prescription bottle. Using this platform to say our drug war is a complete failure and to legalize all drugs to help people.

swader999 6y ago

Had gotten to the same point at 35. Children turned the everyday mundane into new adventure.

silveroriole 6y ago

That’s pretty harsh to your wife, isn’t it? Your life with her is “just a bunch of pain and boredom”? It would make a difference to her if you die today or 40 years from now.

majkinetor 6y ago
So what now ? The one can't have genuine feelings because feeling something is harsh to others ?

shadowprofile77 6y ago

Start with the marriage. If no part of your life seems like more than a trudge towards the eventual grave, then this marriage can hardly be much of a joy. Get rid of it. Even if you fear the consequences, they will at least spice up your daily life enough to remove much of that seemingly sure boredom for a time. You will introduce something interesting: future options that no longer feel so predictable..

cthonicthulu 6y ago

One interesting thing I hear repeated from a lot of my friends is that having children somehow makes you very good at getting things done, which @pg alludes to in this post. You get very good at making things finite, because your child is a natural marker of time. If you are in a married relationship where children are off the table and you are hopelessly bored, what do you hope to get out of the marriage? I mean this sincerely. I know a lot of people for whom a married relationship with children off the table where you get the opportunity to be "hopelessly bored" is their idea of nirvana. No relationship drama, no children to manage, all the free time to take to travel or shared hobbies or shared life experiences. Perhaps I sense this may not be the case for you?