7 ms·

> but it really seems that for the population as a whole Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Early bird gets the worm an

by shados 6y ago

> but it really seems that for the population as a whole Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Early bird gets the worm and all that, but everything is essentially rigged toward it. From the time/daylight, to school start time, going by quiet hours (hope you enjoy jack hammers starting at 7am stats, because by most city's ordinance, that's not only allowed, it's NORMAL. And to start at 7, the trucks and crew have to start getting ready long before that). I assume a large part of it is the emphasis on family and kids, and generally for people with young children, early morning isn't really early. But for a lot of people...ouch. Considering all the literature around the issues related to sleep deprivation, and how so many people are sleep deprived (likely related to a lot of mental issues, stress, and various other health problems), we really need to work and optimize around making it possible for people to sleep enough. As things are, if you can, it's just dumb luck.

bjo590 6y ago
> As things are, if you can, it's just dumb luck. Funny, I've gotten 8+ hours of sleep over 95% of nights in the past 5 years. I must have a string of very good luck. It probably isn't due to lifestyle choices.
- itisit 6y ago
  You must have this controversial "free will" I hear so much about..
  - dmix 6y ago
    As in "free-will" not to live in any (western?) city where 7am is noise go-time, regardless of real life statistics and local cultural differences? I personally think these society-wide policies should reflect the realities of the population. Which often means reviewing them every once in a while to see if it still makes sense. Far too much gov policy is fire-and-forget and obsessed with forever adding new things. In my perfect world at least 50% of time should be spent reviewing and tweaking existing policy.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > any (western?) city where 7am is noise go-time, regardless of real life statistics and local cultural differences? This is an interesting comment to me. San Francisco is really, really loud -- the biggest offender, when I was there, was near-daily sirens from (I believe) fire trucks. But this is not a necessary aspect of living in a city. I often did wake up early in Shanghai, but that was because the sun came up at 4 am. Noise wasn't much of an issue during the ambiguous times. (Before firecrackers/fireworks were outlawed, they were common, but they were more of an afternoon thing.)
      - shados 6y ago
        > But this is not a necessary aspect of living in a city Ding ding, we have a winner. Around here, if you complain about noise, you'll just be told "It's a city, it's noisy, deal with it! If you don't like it, move to the suburbs!". Which is kind of a silly suggestion: I've lived in the suburbs and kids having pool parties were a lot noisier than anything I've seen in a city. You'd have to be in the middle of a forest or something to not have to worry about human noise. In cities, suburbs, whatever, noise is a lot more cultural, and what people consider okay or not. Sure, some level of cars/traffic will just happen. Other things like construction can be done in a lot of ways (some cities require plans on how they will minimize inconvenience to neighbors. Others are free for all). Backup alarms seem like a necessary evil, but I'm told in London they're not really a thing. People screaming at 2am is just about enforcement and cultural norms. Some cities are loud. Other, bigger cities aren't.
    - jameshush 6y ago
      What’s helped me A LOT is sleeping ear plugs (I use macks silicon) and a face mask. Absolute game changers. My room mates can be watching TV in the living room beside me and I fall right asleep
      - jamiek88 6y ago
        Me too! Done it for years now and my watch vibrates as an alarm clock so that problem was solved. People need showing how to wear them properly, really just read the instructions on the packet but so many people insert them haphazardly then say they don’t work or they fall out.
- zeta0134 6y ago
  I pulled this off too, but the main criteria (and this is NOT a given) was finally landing a job with a consistent schedule. It was not even remotely possible working retail before that, with shifts that varied by day, by week, by whomever called in sick and required last minute shuffling... that was a mess. This is the unfortunate practical reality for large segments of the population. Once you have a consistent schedule, barring medical issues, sleeping is easy. Simply pick a time 8+ hours before your routine for the day needs to begin, and get into bed at that time every day. Actually in bed! Not on your phone, not watching TV, lights off and eyes closed. Helps if your evening routine winds down in intensity, but won't matter much if you're already exhausted. You can't do anything about your mind racing some nights, but for the most part after a week of this schedule your body takes the hint and adjusts your rhythm accordingly. I've worked tons of odd night shifts this way; the consistency of routine seems to be far more important than the specific time. Which block of time works for you is a matter of job, lifestyle, and a bunch of other factors that a lot of folks may not be in full control of. I think the real dumb luck here is having enough controllable factors that carving out the same 8+ hour block each night is possible. In my mind though, it is worth the effort. Good, consistent sleep quality has an absolutely massive impact on your willpower and general ability to focus.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    >Once you have a consistent schedule, barring medical issues, sleeping is easy I respect your personal experience, but you are coming on a little strong in terms of assuming everyone is just like yourself. Something I've seen other people mention, and may have myself (although not formally diagnosed): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder I have worked 8-5, 2-11, and 11-8, and no matter what my schedule was, I had the urge to stay up a little later, but needed at least 8 hours to feel adequately rested. So typically I would get 7 hours or so and feel exhausted every morning. Without work or appointments, I would rotate my schedule around the clock, day by day. It's as if I was tuned to a planet with a slightly longer day. After many, many years, I found by accident that bupropion (aka Zyban aka Wellbutrin) fixed it, just like that. It was amazing. But I wasn't able to tolerate a full dosage, so that didn't last. It does point to some dysfunction of nicotinic receptors.
- Hydraulix989 6y ago
  You do realize that biological circadian rhythms are distributed across the population as a bell curve and so as a natural early riser, you were born compatible with society's schedule -- 50% of the population has a naturally delayed cycle that is incompatible, and I, for one, consider my genes to be a product of "dumb luck."
- visarga 6y ago
  Could be even the magnesium content of your drinking water. I noticed much better sleep when I take Mg supplements.
- jonS90 6y ago
  Lifestyle choices only get you so far if you have to figbt against your circadian rhythm to wake up before the sun. Your body wants to stay up late and wake up late, so you just end up sleeping less.
  - gpanders 6y ago
    Nurses, doctors, firefighters, parents, and a number of other professions around the world are well versed in adjusting their sleep schedules as needed. I don’t think your circadian rhythm is as fixed as you think it is
    - shados 6y ago
      Some do, and they can work those jobs because their biology allows it. A big chunk of it are just in constant state of sleep deprivation though and are miserable. That will catch up to them eventually.
- shados 6y ago
  Yes, it's just luck, unless your lifestyle choice was to pitch a tent away from civilization. You're lucky the city didn't permit a 5 years construction project next to your house. You're lucky your neighbors aren't assholes. You're lucky people aren't throwing a 2am BBQ in the street. You're lucky noise ordinance is being enforced. You're lucky you don't get ear infection from earplugs. You're lucky the person who built your apartment didn't cut corners and sealed the windows and joists correctly. You're lucky you're not a light sleeper. You're lucky you don't have sleep disorders. You're lucky your circadian rhythm matches what society expects. I don't know you, where you live, what you do for work. I don't know which ones of these apply to you. Maybe none d, but then something else does. Yes, you're lucky. I had to move 3 times in 2 years because I wasn't so lucky, and I'm still not lucky so I'm throwing enormous amounts of money at the problem (money most people wouldn't have, because they're not as lucky as I am). And no amount of money will fix my biology.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> I assume a large part of it is the emphasis on family and kids, and generally for people with young children, early morning isn't really early. I have two young children, and IME what you say is true of infants, but not other young children.
- shados 6y ago
  I don't have kids so I'll have to take your word for it, but I would assume doing the daily routine and getting kids ready for school, when it starts at 8am, probably doesn't give you much choice. So 7am would feel pretty normal.
nbsanders 6y ago
I think sleep deprivation is regarded as a feature by those in power rather than a bug. You drill children and teenagers to get up early, so that later they are obedient, tired work horses who won't get any ideas. Then the upper classes sagely quote that general who said that only "smart" and lazy people are leaders of the highest order.
- gverrilla 6y ago
  You forget they practice the same bullshit, in so many levels. So they shouldn't be getting any ideas by your logic. So to have this idea would be a contradiction.
- shados 6y ago
  > I think sleep deprivation is regarded as a feature Yup. Needing sleep is considered a luxury. If you complain about not having enough, you're "weak". If you can't sleep because of your neighbors, it's considered a mild inconvenience. Really, we need sleep like we need food, water or air.
asdff 6y ago
I think the emphasis is on getting the most labor done during daylight hours more than anything. Easier to start jackhammering at dawn than to risk having to cut the job short by dusk. tough to harvest crops at night too.
- vidanay 6y ago
  Crops are harvested at night all the time.
- shados 6y ago
  If that was true, it would be different in winter, but it isn't (at least for big projects). I've had a lot of renovation projects done, and all the trade folks I dealt with just like having most of their afternoon free, by starting super early. The jack hammers across the street will start in pitch darkness, they'll just use powerful lights.
lmm 6y ago
> Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Early bird gets the worm and all that, but everything is essentially rigged toward it. From the time/daylight, to school start time, going by quiet hours (hope you enjoy jack hammers starting at 7am stats, because by most city's ordinance, that's not only allowed, it's NORMAL. And to start at 7, the trucks and crew have to start getting ready long before that). By what logic is 7 early? Dawn is well before 7 (at least most of the year) so many people sleep in past dawn, but stay up long after sunset, which is absurdly wasteful.
- Emma_Goldman 6y ago
  There's a wide distribution of circadian rhythms in the human population between the poles of what are commonly called 'early birds' and 'night owls'. Those rhythms mean that there is an optimal wake for each person that is not infinitely flexible. We cannot all sleep and rise with the sun and do our best work. In my case, I struggle to do serious work outside of 10am-10pm. I wake at 7am because of my partner, but for the first three hours of every day, my brain hardly works. I have to fill my time with other things - exercise, reading, chores, and so on. If left to myself, I naturally go to sleep at midnight and wake at nine, and feel better for it.
- shados 6y ago
  As another commenter pointed out, people don't really pick their circadian rhythms. With that said, even if we forget about that, what's early is defined by what we consider late. If you have a teenager who needs 9+ hours of sleep, and they cannot go to sleep before 11pm (because we allow people to be noisy until at least that late), then 7 is quite early, yes.
- mtc010170 6y ago
  Wasteful of what? Sunlight? Early and late are relative concepts. As others have pointed out, there's a variety in natural circadian rhythms, as well as preferences. So to claim an approach other than your own is "absurdly wasteful" strikes me as just shallow and arrogant, and the reason we wound up with DST in the first place.
- konschubert 6y ago
masklinn 6y ago
> Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Noise ordinances are generally 2200 to 0700 or so, going by "solar time" and keeping the same length of calm would make it 1930 to 0430 instead.

by shados 6y ago

bjo590 6y ago

> As things are, if you can, it's just dumb luck. Funny, I've gotten 8+ hours of sleep over 95% of nights in the past 5 years. I must have a string of very good luck. It probably isn't due to lifestyle choices.

itisit 6y ago
You must have this controversial "free will" I hear so much about..
- dmix 6y ago
  As in "free-will" not to live in any (western?) city where 7am is noise go-time, regardless of real life statistics and local cultural differences? I personally think these society-wide policies should reflect the realities of the population. Which often means reviewing them every once in a while to see if it still makes sense. Far too much gov policy is fire-and-forget and obsessed with forever adding new things. In my perfect world at least 50% of time should be spent reviewing and tweaking existing policy.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > any (western?) city where 7am is noise go-time, regardless of real life statistics and local cultural differences? This is an interesting comment to me. San Francisco is really, really loud -- the biggest offender, when I was there, was near-daily sirens from (I believe) fire trucks. But this is not a necessary aspect of living in a city. I often did wake up early in Shanghai, but that was because the sun came up at 4 am. Noise wasn't much of an issue during the ambiguous times. (Before firecrackers/fireworks were outlawed, they were common, but they were more of an afternoon thing.)
    - shados 6y ago
      > But this is not a necessary aspect of living in a city Ding ding, we have a winner. Around here, if you complain about noise, you'll just be told "It's a city, it's noisy, deal with it! If you don't like it, move to the suburbs!". Which is kind of a silly suggestion: I've lived in the suburbs and kids having pool parties were a lot noisier than anything I've seen in a city. You'd have to be in the middle of a forest or something to not have to worry about human noise. In cities, suburbs, whatever, noise is a lot more cultural, and what people consider okay or not. Sure, some level of cars/traffic will just happen. Other things like construction can be done in a lot of ways (some cities require plans on how they will minimize inconvenience to neighbors. Others are free for all). Backup alarms seem like a necessary evil, but I'm told in London they're not really a thing. People screaming at 2am is just about enforcement and cultural norms. Some cities are loud. Other, bigger cities aren't.
  - jameshush 6y ago
    What’s helped me A LOT is sleeping ear plugs (I use macks silicon) and a face mask. Absolute game changers. My room mates can be watching TV in the living room beside me and I fall right asleep
    - jamiek88 6y ago
      Me too! Done it for years now and my watch vibrates as an alarm clock so that problem was solved. People need showing how to wear them properly, really just read the instructions on the packet but so many people insert them haphazardly then say they don’t work or they fall out.
zeta0134 6y ago
I pulled this off too, but the main criteria (and this is NOT a given) was finally landing a job with a consistent schedule. It was not even remotely possible working retail before that, with shifts that varied by day, by week, by whomever called in sick and required last minute shuffling... that was a mess. This is the unfortunate practical reality for large segments of the population. Once you have a consistent schedule, barring medical issues, sleeping is easy. Simply pick a time 8+ hours before your routine for the day needs to begin, and get into bed at that time every day. Actually in bed! Not on your phone, not watching TV, lights off and eyes closed. Helps if your evening routine winds down in intensity, but won't matter much if you're already exhausted. You can't do anything about your mind racing some nights, but for the most part after a week of this schedule your body takes the hint and adjusts your rhythm accordingly. I've worked tons of odd night shifts this way; the consistency of routine seems to be far more important than the specific time. Which block of time works for you is a matter of job, lifestyle, and a bunch of other factors that a lot of folks may not be in full control of. I think the real dumb luck here is having enough controllable factors that carving out the same 8+ hour block each night is possible. In my mind though, it is worth the effort. Good, consistent sleep quality has an absolutely massive impact on your willpower and general ability to focus.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  >Once you have a consistent schedule, barring medical issues, sleeping is easy I respect your personal experience, but you are coming on a little strong in terms of assuming everyone is just like yourself. Something I've seen other people mention, and may have myself (although not formally diagnosed): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder I have worked 8-5, 2-11, and 11-8, and no matter what my schedule was, I had the urge to stay up a little later, but needed at least 8 hours to feel adequately rested. So typically I would get 7 hours or so and feel exhausted every morning. Without work or appointments, I would rotate my schedule around the clock, day by day. It's as if I was tuned to a planet with a slightly longer day. After many, many years, I found by accident that bupropion (aka Zyban aka Wellbutrin) fixed it, just like that. It was amazing. But I wasn't able to tolerate a full dosage, so that didn't last. It does point to some dysfunction of nicotinic receptors.
Hydraulix989 6y ago
You do realize that biological circadian rhythms are distributed across the population as a bell curve and so as a natural early riser, you were born compatible with society's schedule -- 50% of the population has a naturally delayed cycle that is incompatible, and I, for one, consider my genes to be a product of "dumb luck."
visarga 6y ago
Could be even the magnesium content of your drinking water. I noticed much better sleep when I take Mg supplements.
jonS90 6y ago
Lifestyle choices only get you so far if you have to figbt against your circadian rhythm to wake up before the sun. Your body wants to stay up late and wake up late, so you just end up sleeping less.
- gpanders 6y ago
  Nurses, doctors, firefighters, parents, and a number of other professions around the world are well versed in adjusting their sleep schedules as needed. I don’t think your circadian rhythm is as fixed as you think it is
  - shados 6y ago
    Some do, and they can work those jobs because their biology allows it. A big chunk of it are just in constant state of sleep deprivation though and are miserable. That will catch up to them eventually.
shados 6y ago
Yes, it's just luck, unless your lifestyle choice was to pitch a tent away from civilization. You're lucky the city didn't permit a 5 years construction project next to your house. You're lucky your neighbors aren't assholes. You're lucky people aren't throwing a 2am BBQ in the street. You're lucky noise ordinance is being enforced. You're lucky you don't get ear infection from earplugs. You're lucky the person who built your apartment didn't cut corners and sealed the windows and joists correctly. You're lucky you're not a light sleeper. You're lucky you don't have sleep disorders. You're lucky your circadian rhythm matches what society expects. I don't know you, where you live, what you do for work. I don't know which ones of these apply to you. Maybe none d, but then something else does. Yes, you're lucky. I had to move 3 times in 2 years because I wasn't so lucky, and I'm still not lucky so I'm throwing enormous amounts of money at the problem (money most people wouldn't have, because they're not as lucky as I am). And no amount of money will fix my biology.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I assume a large part of it is the emphasis on family and kids, and generally for people with young children, early morning isn't really early. I have two young children, and IME what you say is true of infants, but not other young children.

shados 6y ago
I don't have kids so I'll have to take your word for it, but I would assume doing the daily routine and getting kids ready for school, when it starts at 8am, probably doesn't give you much choice. So 7am would feel pretty normal.

nbsanders 6y ago

I think sleep deprivation is regarded as a feature by those in power rather than a bug. You drill children and teenagers to get up early, so that later they are obedient, tired work horses who won't get any ideas. Then the upper classes sagely quote that general who said that only "smart" and lazy people are leaders of the highest order.

gverrilla 6y ago
You forget they practice the same bullshit, in so many levels. So they shouldn't be getting any ideas by your logic. So to have this idea would be a contradiction.
shados 6y ago
> I think sleep deprivation is regarded as a feature Yup. Needing sleep is considered a luxury. If you complain about not having enough, you're "weak". If you can't sleep because of your neighbors, it's considered a mild inconvenience. Really, we need sleep like we need food, water or air.

asdff 6y ago

I think the emphasis is on getting the most labor done during daylight hours more than anything. Easier to start jackhammering at dawn than to risk having to cut the job short by dusk. tough to harvest crops at night too.

vidanay 6y ago
Crops are harvested at night all the time.
shados 6y ago
If that was true, it would be different in winter, but it isn't (at least for big projects). I've had a lot of renovation projects done, and all the trade folks I dealt with just like having most of their afternoon free, by starting super early. The jack hammers across the street will start in pitch darkness, they'll just use powerful lights.

lmm 6y ago

> Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Early bird gets the worm and all that, but everything is essentially rigged toward it. From the time/daylight, to school start time, going by quiet hours (hope you enjoy jack hammers starting at 7am stats, because by most city's ordinance, that's not only allowed, it's NORMAL. And to start at 7, the trucks and crew have to start getting ready long before that). By what logic is 7 early? Dawn is well before 7 (at least most of the year) so many people sleep in past dawn, but stay up long after sunset, which is absurdly wasteful.

Emma_Goldman 6y ago
There's a wide distribution of circadian rhythms in the human population between the poles of what are commonly called 'early birds' and 'night owls'. Those rhythms mean that there is an optimal wake for each person that is not infinitely flexible. We cannot all sleep and rise with the sun and do our best work. In my case, I struggle to do serious work outside of 10am-10pm. I wake at 7am because of my partner, but for the first three hours of every day, my brain hardly works. I have to fill my time with other things - exercise, reading, chores, and so on. If left to myself, I naturally go to sleep at midnight and wake at nine, and feel better for it.
shados 6y ago
As another commenter pointed out, people don't really pick their circadian rhythms. With that said, even if we forget about that, what's early is defined by what we consider late. If you have a teenager who needs 9+ hours of sleep, and they cannot go to sleep before 11pm (because we allow people to be noisy until at least that late), then 7 is quite early, yes.
mtc010170 6y ago
Wasteful of what? Sunlight? Early and late are relative concepts. As others have pointed out, there's a variety in natural circadian rhythms, as well as preferences. So to claim an approach other than your own is "absurdly wasteful" strikes me as just shallow and arrogant, and the reason we wound up with DST in the first place.
konschubert 6y ago

masklinn 6y ago

> Our society is calibrated with the assumption that you will wake up early. Noise ordinances are generally 2200 to 0700 or so, going by "solar time" and keeping the same length of calm would make it 1930 to 0430 instead.