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A lot of those graphs seem to show that video quality at 1920x1080 is going down significantly. Does that mean you now need to be on their most expensive plan a

A lot of those graphs seem to show that video quality at 1920x1080 is going down significantly. Does that mean you now need to be on their most expensive plan and using one of their approved devices/platforms to continue receiving the same video quality, now only obtainable with 2560x1440 and higher resolutions?

hn_check 6y ago
The chart does not see to show every bitrate for every target resolution, but rather is show where the 4K stream would have to drop to a lower resolution given insufficient bandwidth.
- wtallis 6y ago
  https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*c28F7YXjNo-GpmB9bBmbrA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*c28F7YXjNo-GpmB9bBmbrA.pn... This chart clearly shows multiple data points per resolution under the old fixed-ladder scheme, and under the new scheme the new data point for 1080p is lower on the video quality scale than any of the old 720p encodes. That's a pretty significant difference, and my question about where these new encodes fit into their existing price structure remains valid.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    The article addresses this point: > As a side note, we do have some additional points, not shown in the plots, that are used in resolution limited scenarios — such as a streaming session limited to 720p or 1080p highest encoding resolution. Such points lie under (or to the right of) the convex hull main ladder curve but allow quality to ramp up in resolution limited scenarios.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      Thanks for pointing that bit out. It would still be useful to see where those other points lie. It seems counter-intuitive that they would need a higher bitrate for 1080p than 1440p when both are encoded to the same quality. Maybe their quality metric is slightly biased in favor of having more pixels and is more concerned with accurate reproduction of high-frequency components of the image than having an artifact-free low noise reproduction at a lower resolution? Edit: Looking at their animated GIF comparisons, the newer encodes definitely give a much sharper image, but also have a lot more in the way of ugly artifacts: On the left, under the tree branch: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*SQQkYltbVC-HT-l8GpN-7Q.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*SQQkYltbVC-HT-l8GpN-7Q.gi... The right side of the frame: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*A37BBzK4Ap8JPhmiUiFKcw.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*A37BBzK4Ap8JPhmiUiFKcw.gi... Many of the areas that should be fairly flat looking: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*qI3EY7HDp3p0gwK9YGqchQ.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*qI3EY7HDp3p0gwK9YGqchQ.gi... There's definitely a lot more ringing and similar artifacts in the newer, lower-bitrate samples despite their overall increase in effective resolution.
  - jdmichal 6y ago
    > As a side note, we do have some additional points, not shown in the plots, that are used in resolution limited scenarios — such as a streaming session limited to 720p or 1080p highest encoding resolution. Such points lie under (or to the right of) the convex hull main ladder curve but allow quality to ramp up in resolution limited scenarios. They're showing the curve that is used for connections that want to be streaming 4k. So if you're on the 1080 stream in the charted scenario, it's because you're bandwidth-limited. They have higher-quality, higher-bitrate encoding curves for lower-resolution connections. However, it doesn't make sense to use that 1080 encoding for a 4k connection. If you could afford the bitrate, you'd rather be streaming the higher resolution from the displayed curve.
charrondev 6y ago
How’d you get that out of the article? I read it as scores the board, you’re getting better quality at a lower bit-rate. They talked about being able to serve 1080p at the same bitrate they were serving 720p (where they talked about mobile devices).
- wtallis 6y ago
  There are two dimensions to these graphs. Yes, they've drastically decreased bitrates, but if the cheaper plans still cut off those curves at 720p or 1080p, then you're not necessarily gaining video quality.
- jamie_ca 6y ago
  All 4 of the Bitrate vs Video Quality graphs have two 1920x1080 data points on each line. All four graphs show the data points lower on the Video Quality axis under the optimized ladder. Sure, the first graph shows 1080p at higher quality for lower bitrate to the 720p on the optimized ladder, but if I'm resolution-limited (on a phone) and Netflix isn't streaming higher quality and downsampling on the device, the changes here show that my perception of quality will suffer. (I feel for folks stuck with a 720p screen, if they're just streaming native resolution it looks like they'll be getting worse than previous 480p quality levels.)
deleted 6y ago
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hn_check 6y ago

The chart does not see to show every bitrate for every target resolution, but rather is show where the 4K stream would have to drop to a lower resolution given insufficient bandwidth.

wtallis 6y ago
https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*c28F7YXjNo-GpmB9bBmbrA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*c28F7YXjNo-GpmB9bBmbrA.pn... This chart clearly shows multiple data points per resolution under the old fixed-ladder scheme, and under the new scheme the new data point for 1080p is lower on the video quality scale than any of the old 720p encodes. That's a pretty significant difference, and my question about where these new encodes fit into their existing price structure remains valid.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  The article addresses this point: > As a side note, we do have some additional points, not shown in the plots, that are used in resolution limited scenarios — such as a streaming session limited to 720p or 1080p highest encoding resolution. Such points lie under (or to the right of) the convex hull main ladder curve but allow quality to ramp up in resolution limited scenarios.
  - wtallis 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing that bit out. It would still be useful to see where those other points lie. It seems counter-intuitive that they would need a higher bitrate for 1080p than 1440p when both are encoded to the same quality. Maybe their quality metric is slightly biased in favor of having more pixels and is more concerned with accurate reproduction of high-frequency components of the image than having an artifact-free low noise reproduction at a lower resolution? Edit: Looking at their animated GIF comparisons, the newer encodes definitely give a much sharper image, but also have a lot more in the way of ugly artifacts: On the left, under the tree branch: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*SQQkYltbVC-HT-l8GpN-7Q.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*SQQkYltbVC-HT-l8GpN-7Q.gi... The right side of the frame: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*A37BBzK4Ap8JPhmiUiFKcw.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*A37BBzK4Ap8JPhmiUiFKcw.gi... Many of the areas that should be fairly flat looking: https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*qI3EY7HDp3p0gwK9YGqchQ.gif https://miro.medium.com/max/2000/1*qI3EY7HDp3p0gwK9YGqchQ.gi... There's definitely a lot more ringing and similar artifacts in the newer, lower-bitrate samples despite their overall increase in effective resolution.
- jdmichal 6y ago
  > As a side note, we do have some additional points, not shown in the plots, that are used in resolution limited scenarios — such as a streaming session limited to 720p or 1080p highest encoding resolution. Such points lie under (or to the right of) the convex hull main ladder curve but allow quality to ramp up in resolution limited scenarios. They're showing the curve that is used for connections that want to be streaming 4k. So if you're on the 1080 stream in the charted scenario, it's because you're bandwidth-limited. They have higher-quality, higher-bitrate encoding curves for lower-resolution connections. However, it doesn't make sense to use that 1080 encoding for a 4k connection. If you could afford the bitrate, you'd rather be streaming the higher resolution from the displayed curve.

charrondev 6y ago

How’d you get that out of the article? I read it as scores the board, you’re getting better quality at a lower bit-rate. They talked about being able to serve 1080p at the same bitrate they were serving 720p (where they talked about mobile devices).

wtallis 6y ago
There are two dimensions to these graphs. Yes, they've drastically decreased bitrates, but if the cheaper plans still cut off those curves at 720p or 1080p, then you're not necessarily gaining video quality.
jamie_ca 6y ago
All 4 of the Bitrate vs Video Quality graphs have two 1920x1080 data points on each line. All four graphs show the data points lower on the Video Quality axis under the optimized ladder. Sure, the first graph shows 1080p at higher quality for lower bitrate to the 720p on the optimized ladder, but if I'm resolution-limited (on a phone) and Netflix isn't streaming higher quality and downsampling on the device, the changes here show that my perception of quality will suffer. (I feel for folks stuck with a 720p screen, if they're just streaming native resolution it looks like they'll be getting worse than previous 480p quality levels.)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]