6 ms·

I'm actually happy Apple didn't make a small concession. I can't quite have the resources to sue Apple by myself as a small user being prevented from using the

by cnst 6y ago

I'm actually happy Apple didn't make a small concession. I can't quite have the resources to sue Apple by myself as a small user being prevented from using the device I have paid for the way I see fit. I'm very glad that EPIC is doing it on my behalf. I'm also kind of glad that Apple didn't simply cut a backroom deal with EPIC, but is instead going the full-monty on this.

systemvoltage 6y ago
I share a different view on this. I want Apple to have as much control over as they can to keep my device safe. Obviously, this is an unpopular opinion on HN - part of me wants it super hackable and open source (my hacker self), but my average joe self wants is as tied down, closed doors as possible to avoid sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, and a whole bunch of "soft metrics" about my device to finger print me and then auction it off in a giant data auctioning event - an evil corporation buys my data in 3 milliseconds and off it goes. Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads - they already got their revenue hunger satiated from the high price of my device and all the internal Apple services I pay for (Apple music, TV, icloud, etc). I love Apple and I love that they are willing to stand up for riffraff that's trying to invade my personal space (consider iPhone literally as the entire life's worth of information vault) by masquerading as a crusader of light and openness. I don't want Apple to open up their devices. Average Joes around the world outside of HN crowd will have everything to lose and nothing to gain. I also think that 30% share is too low. Apple should be charging way more for exclusive access to their App store. It's their turf. Why is this good? Because dev will go back to using browser apps to provide services and the browser itself is a nice sandbox to keep the riffraff out. And only high quality apps will make it through the App store.
- drusepth 6y ago
  >I don't want Apple to open up their devices. Average Joes around the world outside of HN crowd will have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Well, they have Fortnite to gain... But seriously, I've lost count of the number of apps I've enjoyed on Androids that were either unavailable or stunted on iOS. Recommending even basic apps like Google Photos to family comes with a long list of caveats like, "oh yeah, it uploads your photos automatically... as long as you open the app manually to do it". It's icing on the cake that they're also taking such a hard stance against game streaming right now, which is IMO going to be a huge market going forward that a lot of people are going to miss out on (or maybe not, since most of the game streaming market is poorer people...). I guess the argument of dumbed-down phones for the sake of security/privacy is a reasonable one, but why wouldn't people just buy, like, actual dumb phones? Having a premium phone that you don't actually own just seems like an oxymoron to me. I don't "hack" my own phone and I'm certainly no tinkerer, but being able to actually use the apps my friends use and changing the settings I want to change makes my day to day life a little better every time I do have to use my phone. Opening up what my friends and family can do with their phones seems like it'd have a lot to gain and very little to lose.
- croes 6y ago
  You are relying on a benevolent dictator. If Apple decided to sell you out you are fucked. BTW if you are such a security fan would it be good if Apple watches which websites you visit in your browser? Wouldn't it be even better if only websites are allowed which are hosted on Apple servers on Apples own internet?
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    Definitely - it is better than keeping tabs on thousands of small predators (apps) that want to milk your data at every instant possible. Apple's entire business model for decades is about selling hardware and services, not advertisement. And they're doubling down on it. The alternatives are "open source" masquerators like Ubuntu who had a boatload of Amazon spyware in it. This is an age old argument about Apple. Last couple of months for Apple has been rough in terms of PR, but I can point you to many many threads about how Apple cares about their users and despite of the "dictator" status, they're a safe bet relative to what other options we have available. It is fashionable during this time to hate on Apple. See @dang's warning at the top of the thread - I've kind of lost hope in HN since it has become too emotional and less objective day by day.
    - croes 6y ago
      Apple is about selling an image. And Apple is caring as long the money flows. Don't get fooled, it's always about money. Apple sells products with a high margin that's why they can do without advertisement at the moment. That can change every moment. Remember how Steve Jobs laughed at using a stylus for tablets, what do we have now? New management, new rules.
    - croes 6y ago
      BTW if Apple wins, developers are fucked. Apples gatekeeping will become the norm. Developers would be resigned to the role of supplicant, who have to beg to sell their apps in the App Stores. Just as is already happening in supermarkets and the automotive industry. The farmers and suppliers are squeezed out and the big corporations make even more money. It's ironic that once Apple sold Macs with the spin to prevent a 1984 like computer scenario. Now they are big brother who watches over us to keep us secure. It"s am incapacitation of its customers.
- wvenable 6y ago
  > Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads - they already got their revenue hunger satiated from the high price of my device and all the internal Apple services I pay for (Apple music, TV, icloud, etc). They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand. They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control it. They've already done a long list of "abuses" that have nothing to do with your device security (or battery life, etc). Honestly I do think Apple has done a great job of device security and I think they could do a lot more with their OS. I don't see why I need an app store to prevent apps from sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, etc -- the OS could protect those from me if that's what Apple wants to do. > Apple should be charging way more for exclusive access to their App store. It's their turf. I think something is likely anti-competitive when there is absolutely no market pressure on pricing.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    > They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control it. They disallow cloud gaming for the same reason they disallow non-generic screen mirroring. Because people would use it to circumvent the App Store policies. I’m sure it nets them some cash to do this but I’m sure they would be happy to take 30% of the cloud gaming subscription revenue and allow it. Can you imagine if Facebook didn’t want to follow App Store rules and just streamed the app? > They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand This is just f.lux. I don’t see Apple banning notes apps in droves. And f.lux ran into the issue of Apple adding the feature and then suddenly f.lux running afoul of “you can’t sell OS functionality” which is a good rule in general. Android is rampant with apps that charge for push notifications.
    - wvenable 6y ago
      > Can you imagine if Facebook didn’t want to follow App Store rules and just streamed the app? You mean like www.facebook.com? I fail to see why game streaming is any different than Netflix. You can't compromise the security of a device if nothing is running on the device. So this is only about Apple maintaining control. > This is just f.lux. Apple banned every screen-time and parental control app just before they released their own. Google Voice was banned. Apple has removed Podcasting applications for "duplicating functionality of iTunes". > Android is rampant with apps that charge for push notifications. I have all Android devices and my wife has all Apple devices (and I had all Apple devices in the past). There is almost no significant difference between the experiences -- the most popular apps on the store between the platforms is generally the same apps from the same companies.
- _qulr 6y ago
  > Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads Search Ads. Every search result in the App Store has a big ad above it with an app you weren't searching for.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    That's an internal matter for Apple. They're not selling user's data on an auction on a global stage.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  No one is forcing you to unlock your phone or install a third party app store. You can have the same relationship with Apple that you do now even if other people can unlock their devices and run their own software. Also, iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits, because iOS exploits are so abundant in comparison to Android exploits.
- xigency 6y ago
  > Why is this good? Because dev will go back to using browser apps to provide services and the browser itself is a nice sandbox to keep the riffraff out. Just so you know, a lot of us would like to develop our software as browser apps, but Apple has deliberately and intentionally limited the capabilities of browser on iOS devices to ensure that developers continue to develop native apps.

by cnst 6y ago

systemvoltage 6y ago

I share a different view on this. I want Apple to have as much control over as they can to keep my device safe. Obviously, this is an unpopular opinion on HN - part of me wants it super hackable and open source (my hacker self), but my average joe self wants is as tied down, closed doors as possible to avoid sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, and a whole bunch of "soft metrics" about my device to finger print me and then auction it off in a giant data auctioning event - an evil corporation buys my data in 3 milliseconds and off it goes. Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads - they already got their revenue hunger satiated from the high price of my device and all the internal Apple services I pay for (Apple music, TV, icloud, etc). I love Apple and I love that they are willing to stand up for riffraff that's trying to invade my personal space (consider iPhone literally as the entire life's worth of information vault) by masquerading as a crusader of light and openness. I don't want Apple to open up their devices. Average Joes around the world outside of HN crowd will have everything to lose and nothing to gain. I also think that 30% share is too low. Apple should be charging way more for exclusive access to their App store. It's their turf. Why is this good? Because dev will go back to using browser apps to provide services and the browser itself is a nice sandbox to keep the riffraff out. And only high quality apps will make it through the App store.

drusepth 6y ago
>I don't want Apple to open up their devices. Average Joes around the world outside of HN crowd will have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Well, they have Fortnite to gain... But seriously, I've lost count of the number of apps I've enjoyed on Androids that were either unavailable or stunted on iOS. Recommending even basic apps like Google Photos to family comes with a long list of caveats like, "oh yeah, it uploads your photos automatically... as long as you open the app manually to do it". It's icing on the cake that they're also taking such a hard stance against game streaming right now, which is IMO going to be a huge market going forward that a lot of people are going to miss out on (or maybe not, since most of the game streaming market is poorer people...). I guess the argument of dumbed-down phones for the sake of security/privacy is a reasonable one, but why wouldn't people just buy, like, actual dumb phones? Having a premium phone that you don't actually own just seems like an oxymoron to me. I don't "hack" my own phone and I'm certainly no tinkerer, but being able to actually use the apps my friends use and changing the settings I want to change makes my day to day life a little better every time I do have to use my phone. Opening up what my friends and family can do with their phones seems like it'd have a lot to gain and very little to lose.
croes 6y ago
You are relying on a benevolent dictator. If Apple decided to sell you out you are fucked. BTW if you are such a security fan would it be good if Apple watches which websites you visit in your browser? Wouldn't it be even better if only websites are allowed which are hosted on Apple servers on Apples own internet?
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  Definitely - it is better than keeping tabs on thousands of small predators (apps) that want to milk your data at every instant possible. Apple's entire business model for decades is about selling hardware and services, not advertisement. And they're doubling down on it. The alternatives are "open source" masquerators like Ubuntu who had a boatload of Amazon spyware in it. This is an age old argument about Apple. Last couple of months for Apple has been rough in terms of PR, but I can point you to many many threads about how Apple cares about their users and despite of the "dictator" status, they're a safe bet relative to what other options we have available. It is fashionable during this time to hate on Apple. See @dang's warning at the top of the thread - I've kind of lost hope in HN since it has become too emotional and less objective day by day.
  - croes 6y ago
    Apple is about selling an image. And Apple is caring as long the money flows. Don't get fooled, it's always about money. Apple sells products with a high margin that's why they can do without advertisement at the moment. That can change every moment. Remember how Steve Jobs laughed at using a stylus for tablets, what do we have now? New management, new rules.
  - croes 6y ago
    BTW if Apple wins, developers are fucked. Apples gatekeeping will become the norm. Developers would be resigned to the role of supplicant, who have to beg to sell their apps in the App Stores. Just as is already happening in supermarkets and the automotive industry. The farmers and suppliers are squeezed out and the big corporations make even more money. It's ironic that once Apple sold Macs with the spin to prevent a 1984 like computer scenario. Now they are big brother who watches over us to keep us secure. It"s am incapacitation of its customers.
wvenable 6y ago
> Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads - they already got their revenue hunger satiated from the high price of my device and all the internal Apple services I pay for (Apple music, TV, icloud, etc). They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand. They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control it. They've already done a long list of "abuses" that have nothing to do with your device security (or battery life, etc). Honestly I do think Apple has done a great job of device security and I think they could do a lot more with their OS. I don't see why I need an app store to prevent apps from sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, etc -- the OS could protect those from me if that's what Apple wants to do. > Apple should be charging way more for exclusive access to their App store. It's their turf. I think something is likely anti-competitive when there is absolutely no market pressure on pricing.
- Spivak 6y ago
  > They disallow cloud gaming because it they can't collect fees from it or control it. They disallow cloud gaming for the same reason they disallow non-generic screen mirroring. Because people would use it to circumvent the App Store policies. I’m sure it nets them some cash to do this but I’m sure they would be happy to take 30% of the cloud gaming subscription revenue and allow it. Can you imagine if Facebook didn’t want to follow App Store rules and just streamed the app? > They remove apps that compete with their own apps even if those apps existed before hand This is just f.lux. I don’t see Apple banning notes apps in droves. And f.lux ran into the issue of Apple adding the feature and then suddenly f.lux running afoul of “you can’t sell OS functionality” which is a good rule in general. Android is rampant with apps that charge for push notifications.
  - wvenable 6y ago
    > Can you imagine if Facebook didn’t want to follow App Store rules and just streamed the app? You mean like www.facebook.com? I fail to see why game streaming is any different than Netflix. You can't compromise the security of a device if nothing is running on the device. So this is only about Apple maintaining control. > This is just f.lux. Apple banned every screen-time and parental control app just before they released their own. Google Voice was banned. Apple has removed Podcasting applications for "duplicating functionality of iTunes". > Android is rampant with apps that charge for push notifications. I have all Android devices and my wife has all Apple devices (and I had all Apple devices in the past). There is almost no significant difference between the experiences -- the most popular apps on the store between the platforms is generally the same apps from the same companies.
_qulr 6y ago
> Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads Search Ads. Every search result in the App Store has a big ad above it with an app you weren't searching for.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  That's an internal matter for Apple. They're not selling user's data on an auction on a global stage.
heavyset_go 6y ago
No one is forcing you to unlock your phone or install a third party app store. You can have the same relationship with Apple that you do now even if other people can unlock their devices and run their own software. Also, iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits, because iOS exploits are so abundant in comparison to Android exploits.
xigency 6y ago
> Why is this good? Because dev will go back to using browser apps to provide services and the browser itself is a nice sandbox to keep the riffraff out. Just so you know, a lot of us would like to develop our software as browser apps, but Apple has deliberately and intentionally limited the capabilities of browser on iOS devices to ensure that developers continue to develop native apps.