3 ms·

This is interesting and doesn't make a lot of sense. You can't learn good form just by playing a good opponent.

comboy 6y ago
I think you can. Especially when you can browse the tree which is similar to asking your teacher "what if" questions. Many players I know learned how to play pretty well on 9x9 by playing a computer program. I'd argue you can even learn much faster playing a program, because for high level players many sequences were based purely on memorization (including point values) but now seeing different results quickly you can understand it better. And the level where your play is based on high level abstractions like influence and group strength is not that hard to reach and it wouldn't take much to reason them out just from the games.
- Trombone12 6y ago
  I think the proper statement is that it's possible, but not efficient. Learning go from a go-program seems much like learning assembly from gcc.
  - comboy 6y ago
    People I know that went studying go to Asia had output from their teachers likely worse than you get from the program given the language barrier and general approach. It was about playing games with strong players (playing different styles, which I admit may teach a bit more than Alpha) and having teacher to point you which of your moves were bad and what to do instead (and that's it, only seeing some sequences and hearing "good", "bad"). Because knowing how and when you lost the game is huge. And doing shitloads of go problems of course. That said, it still may be worth having a teacher/trainer I guess. To motivate you, give you that dopamine in person and all that jazz. I would say it's more like learning to code yourself rather than at the university than learning assembly from gcc.
dsjoerg 6y ago
The article addresses this. Unfortunately the "teachers" were being paid mostly just to be strong opponents for the "students". So AI ruins their market. From the article: "the Go school recruits a professional player, who would agree to play a fixed number of games, like five games, one per week, at a certain price.... Of course there is still room for lower level classes and teaching, but pros are often better at playing teaching games than explaining easy concepts."

I think you can. Especially when you can browse the tree which is similar to asking your teacher "what if" questions. Many players I know learned how to play pretty well on 9x9 by playing a computer program. I'd argue you can even learn much faster playing a program, because for high level players many sequences were based purely on memorization (including point values) but now seeing different results quickly you can understand it better. And the level where your play is based on high level abstractions like influence and group strength is not that hard to reach and it wouldn't take much to reason them out just from the games.

Trombone12 6y ago
I think the proper statement is that it's possible, but not efficient. Learning go from a go-program seems much like learning assembly from gcc.
- comboy 6y ago
  People I know that went studying go to Asia had output from their teachers likely worse than you get from the program given the language barrier and general approach. It was about playing games with strong players (playing different styles, which I admit may teach a bit more than Alpha) and having teacher to point you which of your moves were bad and what to do instead (and that's it, only seeing some sequences and hearing "good", "bad"). Because knowing how and when you lost the game is huge. And doing shitloads of go problems of course. That said, it still may be worth having a teacher/trainer I guess. To motivate you, give you that dopamine in person and all that jazz. I would say it's more like learning to code yourself rather than at the university than learning assembly from gcc.

dsjoerg 6y ago

The article addresses this. Unfortunately the "teachers" were being paid mostly just to be strong opponents for the "students". So AI ruins their market. From the article: "the Go school recruits a professional player, who would agree to play a fixed number of games, like five games, one per week, at a certain price.... Of course there is still room for lower level classes and teaching, but pros are often better at playing teaching games than explaining easy concepts."