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> And "when Zoom goes down, teachers can’t teach"? Come on. I am a college professor. In my class this fall I met my students on Blackboard on Day 1 and Zoom on

> And "when Zoom goes down, teachers can’t teach"? Come on. I am a college professor. In my class this fall I met my students on Blackboard on Day 1 and Zoom on Day 2. If one of them goes down for the day, we'll switch to the other. I think it's for real. Think about elementary school instead. The kids are just learning to use computers. Their parents may be also, and if not they may be trying to do their own work from home while the kids are in class. There are many low-income and/or ESL families. Even the teachers aren't tech experts. In my son's kindergarten class, everyone got school-supplied Chromebooks. They all have Google accounts for Google Classroom. That probably means they could switch to Google Hangouts Meet, but it wouldn't be smooth. They'd at least miss a day, and subsequent days would be rocky. The teacher has invested a lot of effort just in teaching the kids how to mute and unmute themselves without waiting for their grown-up to help, and they'd have to go through that again with a different UI.

hooande 6y ago
This would be a large inconvenience and a disruption, but that doesn't justify one private company being considered critical infrastructure. This view is generally antithetical to innovation. Even if everyone already knows how to use Microsoft Office, it can and should be replaced if better software comes along.
- maest 6y ago
  To be fair, Excel is pretty much critical infrastructure at this point.
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    I think that's not true until Office365 kicks in. If Microsoft "goes down" today, just gets wiped out by some futures FX swap gone wrong, then all the Hedge funds, the doctors notes, the airplane checklists, they will pootle along fine for years. It's only when a central single point of failure is introduced does critical infrastructure become ticking time bomb. An open source peer to peer zoom would reduce such risk - and any sensible government would find that - cries of private business be damned
    - hnick 6y ago
      I think there are other cases. An auto-update that goes wrong could still cause wide ranging issues for non-365 Excel users. And if updates are disabled (or MS goes away), we can add yet-to-be-discovered security flaws to the mix. Neither of these would impact all (or maybe even most) users, but I think it'd impact enough to make a dent. In contrast, Office 365 is probably less susceptible to such flaws, trading them for others.
- scottlamb 6y ago
  > This would be a large inconvenience and a disruption, but that doesn't justify one private company being considered critical infrastructure. Is "critical infrastructure" some sort of official US Government designation? What automatically happens in response to this designation? Note that: * I only said teachers sometimes can't teach when it's down—a claim of fact, not any suggestion of how it should be handled. * The article's only extension of that is "Organizations that rely on video conferencing—and today, that’s most organizations—would be well served to put backup plans in place to minimize the disruption from future Zoom outages." > This view is generally antithetical to innovation. Even if everyone already knows how to use Microsoft Office, it can and should be replaced if better software comes along. I think you're suggesting calling Zoom "critical infrastructure" means it can't be replaced if a clearly superior video conferencing product is available? I disagree. In fact, it'd be reasonable to say this means it _should_ be replaced if Zoom can't give rock-solid reliability SLOs.
  - hooande 6y ago
    You made a very compelling case about why it would be difficult for everyone to switch between software like the root comment describes. But the article goes a step further and says that Zoom specifically is of critical importance. I don't think this is true. Zoom is a brand, not a unique technology. If they suddenly made everyone pay $50/day, the world would switch to alternatives very quickly.
    - scottlamb 6y ago
      I think it's a question of timescales, disruption, and definition. If Zoom were totally unreliable or became expensive, within a quarter almost no one would use it. In that sense I agree with you. But the next week would be a disaster, and that may be enough to call it "critical infrastructure", whatever that means.
forgotmysn 6y ago
the kids in elementary schools were born into the digital age. they're digital natives from the get, and are probably more comfortable using digital tools than we are
- EvilPaticus 6y ago
  That seems pretty short-sighted. Sure my 1st grader knows his way around an iPad enough to play games and watch Netflix, that doesn't mean he's going to understand installing new software or what it means when Zoom isn't working and they have to switch to Hangouts. Yeah, he'll come ask me and I'll figure it out quickly, but I've interacted with enough other parents to know that being able to do so isn't commonplace. Heck even the teachers get confused just setting that stuff up.
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    They'll figure it out. People always complain about having to learn something new, but they will learn if they have to.
  - telesilla 6y ago
    I'm with you. The 4 yr old I am around most knows the computer password and how to jump ads in YouTube and find the videos she wants. It's their native world.
- soylentcola 6y ago
  They also expect everything to "just work" with a nice interface and preferably without any pesky settings or menus to mess with. I mainly deal with grad students and some of the things I need to walk faculty and students through (anything beyond clicking/tapping an icon in Windows or MacOS) can be a bit shocking. It's not all of them, and it may not even be most of them...but it's enough that I spend a decent amount of time handling it. Of course that's part of why I get paid so I'm not really complaining--more just surprised at times.
- scottlamb 6y ago
  I think this belief in "digital native" supremacy is magical thinking: * Most kindergarteners are illiterate and innumerate. That alone severely limits their ability to quickly navigate an unfamiliar, complex UI, much less the extensive number of relevant abstract concepts and references they've yet to learn about. * I've never bought into the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality, especially when simultaneously discarding the value of transferable experience. My senior-citizen parents know how to use iPads just fine, thank you. My dad started programming in the punch card days and has at least used computers almost every day since; don't you think there's some relevance to more modern computers?
ssivark 6y ago
Then that would be part of essential learning experience (not being locked in to arbitrary applications) —- as important as reading and math. If Zoom goes down, so long as there’s some other service, the teacher can send out URLs to the class via emails, and people should be able to get setup quite easily, and help each other out. There will be some corner cases which will involves a bit more of a struggle, but it should be relatively smooth (easier than the first time around).
- PretzelFisch 6y ago
  There is the cost of the other service, the districts/school have to have contracts with both. The teachers and students have to be trained on both. If webex does not work for the day our school is out. In our district although the teachers can work remote( most do) when the school site loses power or has fire evacuation orders instruction stops for all it's students.
- scottlamb 6y ago
  > Then that would be part of essential learning experience (not being locked in to arbitrary applications) —- as important as reading and math. I'm already sad about the time my son is spending learning about video chat etiquette instead of in-person etiquette or reading and math. Even as an ex-SRE who likes to be n+1 on many things, I can't get excited about kindergarteners spending extra time learning _another_ app. Packaging it as an essential learning experience about vendor lock-in isn't going to change that.
Closi 6y ago
We had a meeting today and Zoom went glitchy, so we swapped to teams within 10 minutes.
impendia 6y ago
Fair point. Perhaps I should add that, this past spring, I had a day where Blackboard failed on me, and where I lacked the presence of mind to think of a good Plan B on the spot. To my embarrassment, I ended up cancelling the lecture. That experience is why I thought to plan ahead this time. When Zoom goes down, certainly we should expect some disruptions. As you say, some will be more serious than what I dealt with. But "critical infrastructure" still strikes me as a bit much.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
The issue may not necessarily a technical one or be an issue that faces the teacher directly, but rather a coordination issue. I don't have kids, but my coworkers do and the ensuing aftermath was not pretty. Beyond the obvious, sometimes just making a parent to move to another platform that they just mastered ( because it is not just kids ) can be challenging. Heavens know if it happened to me, I would question move from say Zoom to FB messenger/duo/we..
licebmi__at__ 6y ago
My kid is 6, just a few days ago when zoom failed, the whole class went to hangouts/meet during the first class and the rest of the day went without much disruption on that platform. The main enabler for this is that apparently the school considered something like this happening and actually trained the teachers for such event.
hatenberg 6y ago
Singapore school kids switched effortlessly between google meets and Zoom. Give kids some credit, they are naturally curious and adapt to changes quite effortlessly. Same with masks in school.

hooande 6y ago

This would be a large inconvenience and a disruption, but that doesn't justify one private company being considered critical infrastructure. This view is generally antithetical to innovation. Even if everyone already knows how to use Microsoft Office, it can and should be replaced if better software comes along.

maest 6y ago
To be fair, Excel is pretty much critical infrastructure at this point.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  I think that's not true until Office365 kicks in. If Microsoft "goes down" today, just gets wiped out by some futures FX swap gone wrong, then all the Hedge funds, the doctors notes, the airplane checklists, they will pootle along fine for years. It's only when a central single point of failure is introduced does critical infrastructure become ticking time bomb. An open source peer to peer zoom would reduce such risk - and any sensible government would find that - cries of private business be damned
  - hnick 6y ago
    I think there are other cases. An auto-update that goes wrong could still cause wide ranging issues for non-365 Excel users. And if updates are disabled (or MS goes away), we can add yet-to-be-discovered security flaws to the mix. Neither of these would impact all (or maybe even most) users, but I think it'd impact enough to make a dent. In contrast, Office 365 is probably less susceptible to such flaws, trading them for others.
scottlamb 6y ago
> This would be a large inconvenience and a disruption, but that doesn't justify one private company being considered critical infrastructure. Is "critical infrastructure" some sort of official US Government designation? What automatically happens in response to this designation? Note that: * I only said teachers sometimes can't teach when it's down—a claim of fact, not any suggestion of how it should be handled. * The article's only extension of that is "Organizations that rely on video conferencing—and today, that’s most organizations—would be well served to put backup plans in place to minimize the disruption from future Zoom outages." > This view is generally antithetical to innovation. Even if everyone already knows how to use Microsoft Office, it can and should be replaced if better software comes along. I think you're suggesting calling Zoom "critical infrastructure" means it can't be replaced if a clearly superior video conferencing product is available? I disagree. In fact, it'd be reasonable to say this means it _should_ be replaced if Zoom can't give rock-solid reliability SLOs.
- hooande 6y ago
  You made a very compelling case about why it would be difficult for everyone to switch between software like the root comment describes. But the article goes a step further and says that Zoom specifically is of critical importance. I don't think this is true. Zoom is a brand, not a unique technology. If they suddenly made everyone pay $50/day, the world would switch to alternatives very quickly.
  - scottlamb 6y ago
    I think it's a question of timescales, disruption, and definition. If Zoom were totally unreliable or became expensive, within a quarter almost no one would use it. In that sense I agree with you. But the next week would be a disaster, and that may be enough to call it "critical infrastructure", whatever that means.

forgotmysn 6y ago

the kids in elementary schools were born into the digital age. they're digital natives from the get, and are probably more comfortable using digital tools than we are

EvilPaticus 6y ago
That seems pretty short-sighted. Sure my 1st grader knows his way around an iPad enough to play games and watch Netflix, that doesn't mean he's going to understand installing new software or what it means when Zoom isn't working and they have to switch to Hangouts. Yeah, he'll come ask me and I'll figure it out quickly, but I've interacted with enough other parents to know that being able to do so isn't commonplace. Heck even the teachers get confused just setting that stuff up.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  They'll figure it out. People always complain about having to learn something new, but they will learn if they have to.
- telesilla 6y ago
  I'm with you. The 4 yr old I am around most knows the computer password and how to jump ads in YouTube and find the videos she wants. It's their native world.
soylentcola 6y ago
They also expect everything to "just work" with a nice interface and preferably without any pesky settings or menus to mess with. I mainly deal with grad students and some of the things I need to walk faculty and students through (anything beyond clicking/tapping an icon in Windows or MacOS) can be a bit shocking. It's not all of them, and it may not even be most of them...but it's enough that I spend a decent amount of time handling it. Of course that's part of why I get paid so I'm not really complaining--more just surprised at times.
scottlamb 6y ago
I think this belief in "digital native" supremacy is magical thinking: * Most kindergarteners are illiterate and innumerate. That alone severely limits their ability to quickly navigate an unfamiliar, complex UI, much less the extensive number of relevant abstract concepts and references they've yet to learn about. * I've never bought into the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality, especially when simultaneously discarding the value of transferable experience. My senior-citizen parents know how to use iPads just fine, thank you. My dad started programming in the punch card days and has at least used computers almost every day since; don't you think there's some relevance to more modern computers?

ssivark 6y ago

Then that would be part of essential learning experience (not being locked in to arbitrary applications) —- as important as reading and math. If Zoom goes down, so long as there’s some other service, the teacher can send out URLs to the class via emails, and people should be able to get setup quite easily, and help each other out. There will be some corner cases which will involves a bit more of a struggle, but it should be relatively smooth (easier than the first time around).

PretzelFisch 6y ago
There is the cost of the other service, the districts/school have to have contracts with both. The teachers and students have to be trained on both. If webex does not work for the day our school is out. In our district although the teachers can work remote( most do) when the school site loses power or has fire evacuation orders instruction stops for all it's students.
scottlamb 6y ago
> Then that would be part of essential learning experience (not being locked in to arbitrary applications) —- as important as reading and math. I'm already sad about the time my son is spending learning about video chat etiquette instead of in-person etiquette or reading and math. Even as an ex-SRE who likes to be n+1 on many things, I can't get excited about kindergarteners spending extra time learning _another_ app. Packaging it as an essential learning experience about vendor lock-in isn't going to change that.

Closi 6y ago

We had a meeting today and Zoom went glitchy, so we swapped to teams within 10 minutes.

impendia 6y ago

Fair point. Perhaps I should add that, this past spring, I had a day where Blackboard failed on me, and where I lacked the presence of mind to think of a good Plan B on the spot. To my embarrassment, I ended up cancelling the lecture. That experience is why I thought to plan ahead this time. When Zoom goes down, certainly we should expect some disruptions. As you say, some will be more serious than what I dealt with. But "critical infrastructure" still strikes me as a bit much.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

The issue may not necessarily a technical one or be an issue that faces the teacher directly, but rather a coordination issue. I don't have kids, but my coworkers do and the ensuing aftermath was not pretty. Beyond the obvious, sometimes just making a parent to move to another platform that they just mastered ( because it is not just kids ) can be challenging. Heavens know if it happened to me, I would question move from say Zoom to FB messenger/duo/we..

licebmi__at__ 6y ago

My kid is 6, just a few days ago when zoom failed, the whole class went to hangouts/meet during the first class and the rest of the day went without much disruption on that platform. The main enabler for this is that apparently the school considered something like this happening and actually trained the teachers for such event.

hatenberg 6y ago

Singapore school kids switched effortlessly between google meets and Zoom. Give kids some credit, they are naturally curious and adapt to changes quite effortlessly. Same with masks in school.