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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html ht

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holoc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba So definitely were known before liberation. As for the date, could be that I was wrong and it was 1943, and not 1941 (However, as soon as 1941-2 some 1.5 million Russian jews were shot to death, was there zero evidence of that?) It's also possible some governments had evidence but refused to believe such monstrosity could take place, or were just helpless / reluctant to do anything. Hell even these days some people refuse to accept what happened there. Obviously the Germans didn't know who knew what and tried to conceal. And obviously American / Russian soldiers who liberated the camps were surprised. Does that mean Churchill / Roosevelt were surprised? Also - was it really such a shocker? Jews were starving to death for years in Ghettoes prior to extermination - surely the local population had an idea the jews fate wasn't great.

thu2111 6y ago
Hmm, the article about Vrba says he escaped in April 1944 but it took months for his report to be published. Meanwhile the Soviets encountered their first concentration camp around July 1944 time as well. So it sounds like his report came out more or less concurrently with the Soviets discovering Madjanek. The page does say that there were previous reports, but one was only in Polish. The other apparently did end up with the British and American governments, but that's a long way from most governments knowing. And even when the allies started discovering camps it was censored for a while, supposedly to avoid upsetting people with missing relatives. So I guess the information hardly travelled far, and not outside US/UK war offices. The Independent article seems to be conflating different things. Jews started fleeing the Nazis even before they fully assumed power. The comments about the Empire being full are presumably related to that. Wanting to indict Hitler for war crimes hardly required knowledge of concentration camps, so I'm not sure it provides so much evidence. I guess there's surprise, and then there's formally knowing. I referenced a German woman who said she "knew" but what she meant was she wasn't surprised when she learned. I guess that was how a lot of people reacted. Interesting links though, thanks. I learned some new things about WW2 today.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  This piece is also interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate So there were definitely evidence of what was going on. The allies were getting their asses kicked till U.S joined the war so I'm not sure there was much that could have been done...

thu2111 6y ago

Hmm, the article about Vrba says he escaped in April 1944 but it took months for his report to be published. Meanwhile the Soviets encountered their first concentration camp around July 1944 time as well. So it sounds like his report came out more or less concurrently with the Soviets discovering Madjanek. The page does say that there were previous reports, but one was only in Polish. The other apparently did end up with the British and American governments, but that's a long way from most governments knowing. And even when the allies started discovering camps it was censored for a while, supposedly to avoid upsetting people with missing relatives. So I guess the information hardly travelled far, and not outside US/UK war offices. The Independent article seems to be conflating different things. Jews started fleeing the Nazis even before they fully assumed power. The comments about the Empire being full are presumably related to that. Wanting to indict Hitler for war crimes hardly required knowledge of concentration camps, so I'm not sure it provides so much evidence. I guess there's surprise, and then there's formally knowing. I referenced a German woman who said she "knew" but what she meant was she wasn't surprised when she learned. I guess that was how a lot of people reacted. Interesting links though, thanks. I learned some new things about WW2 today.

joelbluminator 6y ago
This piece is also interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate So there were definitely evidence of what was going on. The allies were getting their asses kicked till U.S joined the war so I'm not sure there was much that could have been done...