3 ms·
This is the kind of more controversial comment Id like to see upvoted to spur good discussion. The Second Amendment says well regulated militia. Should a grou
by basch 6y ago
This is the kind of more controversial comment Id like to see upvoted to spur good discussion.
The Second Amendment says well regulated militia. Should a group of people be able to organize, with guns, to protect businesses from riots and looters?
This one is looking like a very complicated situation as it unfolds. Someone underage, carrying an illegal gun, probably doesn't fall into well regulated. (Furthermore, what happens if someone underage, carrying an illegal gun, crossed a boarder, is attacked and defends themself? It's food for thought. Is every party, protester, militia, police, simultaneously victim and perpetrator?) That in and of itself doesn't negate the constitutional right of others to do the same thing legally. Just like everything else, a small group of people breaking the law, shouldn't take away everyone elses rights. That goes for rioters not destroying peoples rights to protest. That goes for kids/murderers destroying peoples rights to a militia. If you want to say "protesters arent rioters" thats fine, then protesters and militia shouldnt clash, should both be free to exercise their rights, and if they do, that illegal clash should be prosecuted.
The other comments here are saying "cops should stop..." but that is irrelevant to the fact that it is legal (and the cops were encouraging it at the scene) for people to stand outside a building and protect it. Taking that a step further, and back to the point of the initial article, where does Facebook draw the line in allowing people to self organize to protect their property? Is defensive violence different than offensive violence? And then theres the idea that a militia is designed as a check and balance against an oppressive police/military force. Does suppressing the formation of militia play into the strengthening of unchecked government power?
- meheleventyone 6y agoI think the crux is well regulated and you nailed that well. If there are random people showing up with guns is that well regulated even if they have similar aims and might work together? One of the clear things from this incident is that the shooter was alone. Basically a cardinal sin from a military standpoint. Add to that AFAIK it’s not necessarily legal for random people to show up and stake a claim to defend property. Even if sanctioned implicitly by the police. In general though I think it’s far more likely and borne out by history that if militias are allowed to form they do so in protection of the state far earlier than they do in opposition. The really interesting thing to me is that the anti-authority militias seem to have been entirely coopted into state support. Primarily though state supporting militias will arise earlier and stronger because it’s significantly easier to organise in support of extant power structures than it is to organise against them. Part of the current problem IMO is that the police no longer see themselves as neutral. White men dressed a certain way with guns are given a free pass as “one of us” in the heat of the moment.
- basch 6y ago>the shooter was alone. I havent watched much of it, but the one I did see starts with him being chased. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion I can draw from that. >anti-authority militias seem to have been entirely coopted into state support It is, almost an enemy of my enemy situation.
- meheleventyone 6y agoIf he wasn’t alone where were his militia buddies whilst all this happened? Watching from a safe distance? And I don’t think it’s an enemy of my enemy thing. I think these groups genuinely think Trump supports them.
- DuskStar 6y agoHis militia buddies were back at the original car dealership they were protecting. The shooter left there to provide medical assistance, which required crossing a police line - the police didn't allow him to return to his group after that. This is from the following twitter thread by a NYTimes reporter: https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809 https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809
- meheleventyone 6y agoYour link does not give evidence for what you assert.
- DuskStar 6y agoYeah, I'll try and track down the "to provide medical assistance" bit. Though that thread does show the rest: > Rittenhouse eventually leaves the dealership (https://t.co/udrONTtQEY?amp=1 https://t.co/udrONTtQEY?amp=1) and is barred by the police from returning, as seen @Ruptly footage, six minutes before the shooting: https://youtu.be/EEY5aBPNvIg?t=7147 https://youtu.be/EEY5aBPNvIg?t=7147.
- 6y ago
- DuskStar 6y ago> Someone underage, carrying an illegal gun, probably doesn't fall into well regulated. Except AFAICT open carry of long guns by minors 16-17 is legal in Wisconsin, as long as if you're hunting you have the appropriate license. And the gun itself is very definitely legal - IIRC it's the most popular "modern sporting rifle" in existence, and millions exist in similar configurations.
- basch 6y agohttps://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/suspected-kenosha-shooter-may-have-been-illegally-carrying-gun https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/suspected-kenosha-shoot... I was under the impression it was illegal for a minor to be open carrying. By illegal gun I meant not registered to him, correct me if I'm wrong. Was it legal for him to own the gun in Illinois? He was also breaking curfew.
- DuskStar 6y ago1. It appears to be legal for minors 16+ to open carry long guns in Wisconsin. The law is convoluted, though, and there is quite some debate around this - it is certainly allowed for hunting, and may also be allowed for other purposes. (Concealed carry would be illegal, though) 2. Guns do not have to be registered to an individual in most states. (As in, other than the ones like CA, NY and NJ) 3. It appears to be legal for minors 16+ to possess long guns in Illinois, if you jump through the appropriate hoops - see https://www.ichv.org/legislation/illinois-state-gun-laws/ https://www.ichv.org/legislation/illinois-state-gun-laws/ Yes, he was breaking curfew.