6 ms·

This article doesn’t know it but it’s explaining to middle-class people what being poor is like.

peterlk 6y ago
I really hope that your comment gets upvoted and seen by many HN readers. I'll elaborate based on my own experiences. To me, this article is explaining an extremely common phenomenon where people who have "played the game" or "been on the conveyor belt" realize that the game is a lie. In the conveyor belt world, we're taught to get good grades, aim for a promotion, etc. And as long as we keep doing well in a structured environment, goodness will flow. Those of us how are poor do not get to get on the conveyor belt without great luck or triple the work that it took our monied peers to do the same. Great disruptions to the conveyor belt show those who have never been off it what it is like to fend for oneself as all those who were not fortunate enough to get on had to.
- ericmcer 6y ago
  The conveyor belt is not really being disrupted, the Fed refuses to let it be. Look at housing values, stock prices, etc. They are going to float asset prices so the monied don't have to crack a sweat about any kind of income inequality correction happening. Anyone who dollar cost averaged into stocks during the downturn made 100X what our 'essential workers' did checking groceries. I was naive and only took a small position but it's still a joke when I look at its gains today vs someone providing a real service for $12/hr.
notabee 6y ago
What a devastatingly concise comment. I keep trying to type out more to agree, but this just nails it.
amirkdv 6y ago
Can't upvote this enough! Virtually every paragraph of the article _only_ makes sense from a middle-class perspective.
heymijo 6y ago
When something is written so perfectly there is nothing else to say. But comments with many replies seem to draw more attention so I will add to this: I have taught in an area that is poor. The opioid epidemic piled on top of that poverty to ravage it further. Students came to school and would say they were going to their uncle's in the next town tonight. I would say oh that's nice, what will you do. They would say, take a shower. We don't have running water so we go there once a week. Basic needs that anyone in the middle class like me take for granted become focal points every day for someone living in poverty. Do I put $5 of gas in my car or buy food? My car broke down and I can't afford to fix it. My minimum wage job uses dynamic scheduling and they just said I have to come in. My friend who I texted to take me can't do it at this time. There's no public transportation. How do I get to work? And if I do, who is there when my kids get home from school? It's an insidious cycle. You can't see 5 feet in front of you and the treadmill never stops running. God, I hope people read your comment and the article.
- heymijo 6y ago
  Six months ago a poster here lamented that they were rejected by Google and Facebook. That it would take 2-3 years for them to make $250k. That everyone they see on IG is getting to go to Hawaii on offsites while their employer won't even pay to send them to a conference in Seattle. It is the kind of thing I can understand. Everyone, at every income level has problems that are very real to them. At the same time, I look at their complaints in light of what someone in poverty deals with everyday and their complaints are pitiful.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I look at their complaints in light of what someone in poverty deals with everyday and their complaints are pitiful. I agree with the need for perspective. The well off really need to know what the rest of the world is like, so they make decisions that take their effects on others into account. The disadvantaged really need to know what the path to being well off looks like, so they can apply their voices and efforts to the places that will make a difference. I've been in that place where a rise in the price of ramen or gasoline could make it impossible to pay rent. I've also been fortunate to find myself in a much better place. However, we don't gain much by forbidding any displeasure for all but the worst sufferers. Failing to get a job at FAANG doesn't magically move that money into the hands of people who desperately need it. Being set back in one's own fortunate life still sucks. We all need empathy at times, nobody should have a monopoly on empathy. Mutual empathy builds bridges, monopolized empathy builds resentment.
ellyagg 6y ago
Have you been poor and middle class? Because this description doesn't match my personal experience at all. Most of my adult life I was poor. I had a wife and child. I worked as a customer service rep for a well-known cellular provider. I made just over ~20K and my wife didn't work. It would have been awesome to make more money, but I could leave my job at the office and my free time was 100% my own. I was carefree. Later I decided I needed to keep up. I mean, I'd always been ambitious but I didn't know how to make myself actually do stuff. I figured that out, became a developer. Now, I make by far the most I've ever made, well over 100K. And I can't leave my work at home. And my company is constantly struggling to make ends meet and I'm a critical piece in making sure that happens from payroll to payroll so people don't lose their jobs and so I don't lose my job. And that's why I get paid what I do. But the stress is incredible. I often wonder what the point is. I work >8 hours every day, because I can work from home. And people say, you should be happy you have a job! I remember being happy not having a job. A bunch of people I know don't have jobs but have been making a really nice income off unemployment and get to do whatever they want all day. A family member I know who tells me this is on disability (the outcome of lifestyle decisions very much under her control) and owns a house and goes on vacations every month or two. She must be a wizard with money, but still. Figuring out how to force myself to produce, every day, all day, didn't make me happier. The reason I wasn't producing is because I do not want to produce all day, every day. It sucks. The machine incentivizes me to. The machine requires it. If you want to be middle class, you have to do what the machine tells you. For a very large fraction of the population, I'm guessing doing what the machine tells you doesn't make them happy so they never quite get the hang of it and stay poor. The happiest and most stress free times in my life were being poor. Of course, it'd be nice to have more money too. But you only get that from bowing to the machine or making other people who are bowing to the machine give it to you, which is an extra layer of evil.
- craftinator 6y ago
  > I made just over ~20K and my wife didn't work. > I was carefree. These two statements are inconsistent. As someone who's lived a few years at earning ~20K, I can say that when 70% of your income goes to rent/mortgage, and 30% split between automotive/basic necessities, you are never carefree. Your always one mistake, one mishap, one unlucky event away from being homeless and destitute. When you can't celebrate any event, any birthday, any Christmas or holiday, can't engage in any activity that costs any amount money, and can't save anything? Every moment you spend planning and worrying to try to keep your head above water. Not sure how you can be carefree while you're constantly at the edge of losing everything you have and the ability to get it back.
kthejoker2 6y ago
This is still the most powerful story I've ever read, I wouldn't wish the bus trip section on my worst enemy. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/08/18/the-marriage-cure/amp https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/08/18/the-marriage-c...
- viburnum 6y ago
  I remember that article too! Can’t believe it was 17 years ago.

I really hope that your comment gets upvoted and seen by many HN readers. I'll elaborate based on my own experiences. To me, this article is explaining an extremely common phenomenon where people who have "played the game" or "been on the conveyor belt" realize that the game is a lie. In the conveyor belt world, we're taught to get good grades, aim for a promotion, etc. And as long as we keep doing well in a structured environment, goodness will flow. Those of us how are poor do not get to get on the conveyor belt without great luck or triple the work that it took our monied peers to do the same. Great disruptions to the conveyor belt show those who have never been off it what it is like to fend for oneself as all those who were not fortunate enough to get on had to.

ericmcer 6y ago
The conveyor belt is not really being disrupted, the Fed refuses to let it be. Look at housing values, stock prices, etc. They are going to float asset prices so the monied don't have to crack a sweat about any kind of income inequality correction happening. Anyone who dollar cost averaged into stocks during the downturn made 100X what our 'essential workers' did checking groceries. I was naive and only took a small position but it's still a joke when I look at its gains today vs someone providing a real service for $12/hr.

notabee 6y ago

What a devastatingly concise comment. I keep trying to type out more to agree, but this just nails it.

amirkdv 6y ago

Can't upvote this enough! Virtually every paragraph of the article _only_ makes sense from a middle-class perspective.

heymijo 6y ago

When something is written so perfectly there is nothing else to say. But comments with many replies seem to draw more attention so I will add to this: I have taught in an area that is poor. The opioid epidemic piled on top of that poverty to ravage it further. Students came to school and would say they were going to their uncle's in the next town tonight. I would say oh that's nice, what will you do. They would say, take a shower. We don't have running water so we go there once a week. Basic needs that anyone in the middle class like me take for granted become focal points every day for someone living in poverty. Do I put $5 of gas in my car or buy food? My car broke down and I can't afford to fix it. My minimum wage job uses dynamic scheduling and they just said I have to come in. My friend who I texted to take me can't do it at this time. There's no public transportation. How do I get to work? And if I do, who is there when my kids get home from school? It's an insidious cycle. You can't see 5 feet in front of you and the treadmill never stops running. God, I hope people read your comment and the article.

heymijo 6y ago
Six months ago a poster here lamented that they were rejected by Google and Facebook. That it would take 2-3 years for them to make $250k. That everyone they see on IG is getting to go to Hawaii on offsites while their employer won't even pay to send them to a conference in Seattle. It is the kind of thing I can understand. Everyone, at every income level has problems that are very real to them. At the same time, I look at their complaints in light of what someone in poverty deals with everyday and their complaints are pitiful.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  I look at their complaints in light of what someone in poverty deals with everyday and their complaints are pitiful. I agree with the need for perspective. The well off really need to know what the rest of the world is like, so they make decisions that take their effects on others into account. The disadvantaged really need to know what the path to being well off looks like, so they can apply their voices and efforts to the places that will make a difference. I've been in that place where a rise in the price of ramen or gasoline could make it impossible to pay rent. I've also been fortunate to find myself in a much better place. However, we don't gain much by forbidding any displeasure for all but the worst sufferers. Failing to get a job at FAANG doesn't magically move that money into the hands of people who desperately need it. Being set back in one's own fortunate life still sucks. We all need empathy at times, nobody should have a monopoly on empathy. Mutual empathy builds bridges, monopolized empathy builds resentment.

ellyagg 6y ago

Have you been poor and middle class? Because this description doesn't match my personal experience at all. Most of my adult life I was poor. I had a wife and child. I worked as a customer service rep for a well-known cellular provider. I made just over ~20K and my wife didn't work. It would have been awesome to make more money, but I could leave my job at the office and my free time was 100% my own. I was carefree. Later I decided I needed to keep up. I mean, I'd always been ambitious but I didn't know how to make myself actually do stuff. I figured that out, became a developer. Now, I make by far the most I've ever made, well over 100K. And I can't leave my work at home. And my company is constantly struggling to make ends meet and I'm a critical piece in making sure that happens from payroll to payroll so people don't lose their jobs and so I don't lose my job. And that's why I get paid what I do. But the stress is incredible. I often wonder what the point is. I work >8 hours every day, because I can work from home. And people say, you should be happy you have a job! I remember being happy not having a job. A bunch of people I know don't have jobs but have been making a really nice income off unemployment and get to do whatever they want all day. A family member I know who tells me this is on disability (the outcome of lifestyle decisions very much under her control) and owns a house and goes on vacations every month or two. She must be a wizard with money, but still. Figuring out how to force myself to produce, every day, all day, didn't make me happier. The reason I wasn't producing is because I do not want to produce all day, every day. It sucks. The machine incentivizes me to. The machine requires it. If you want to be middle class, you have to do what the machine tells you. For a very large fraction of the population, I'm guessing doing what the machine tells you doesn't make them happy so they never quite get the hang of it and stay poor. The happiest and most stress free times in my life were being poor. Of course, it'd be nice to have more money too. But you only get that from bowing to the machine or making other people who are bowing to the machine give it to you, which is an extra layer of evil.

craftinator 6y ago
> I made just over ~20K and my wife didn't work. > I was carefree. These two statements are inconsistent. As someone who's lived a few years at earning ~20K, I can say that when 70% of your income goes to rent/mortgage, and 30% split between automotive/basic necessities, you are never carefree. Your always one mistake, one mishap, one unlucky event away from being homeless and destitute. When you can't celebrate any event, any birthday, any Christmas or holiday, can't engage in any activity that costs any amount money, and can't save anything? Every moment you spend planning and worrying to try to keep your head above water. Not sure how you can be carefree while you're constantly at the edge of losing everything you have and the ability to get it back.

kthejoker2 6y ago

This is still the most powerful story I've ever read, I wouldn't wish the bus trip section on my worst enemy. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/08/18/the-marriage-cure/amp https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/08/18/the-marriage-c...

viburnum 6y ago
I remember that article too! Can’t believe it was 17 years ago.