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> regurgitation Somebody's an essayist. In any case, I'll grant you that the 80s cars and CRT theming are retro-futuristic, but those are all surface-level, a

> regurgitation Somebody's an essayist. In any case, I'll grant you that the 80s cars and CRT theming are retro-futuristic, but those are all surface-level, as Gibson himself points out. However, I think the criticism loses steam if you try to apply it below the surface, even just a little. Social media, political troll gangs, cheap drones, and military + police robotics played a big part in Watchdogs, and those are all modern or forward-looking. Deus Ex's human augmentation is still forward-looking. AI integration in Detroit Become Human is still forward-looking, even if it isn't terribly imaginative. The interactions of technology, poverty, and crime common to all of these are still forward looking, even if in hindsight they failed to predict some big trends (e.g. social media boosting conspiracy groups and the "traditional hustles" of self-help and alternative medicine). Regardless, the artists are still using their imaginations. It's the critics who see an 80s car, call it kitsch to get engagement, and miss everything of substance.

drhayes9 6y ago
But the concerns expressed in those works were the same as the ones expressed forty years ago; that's the point the original article is making. Bethke himself used the phrase “self-referential metafiction” in describing sci-fi authors in the late 70s. I think a lot of the current cyberpunk work is the same, commoditizing an art movement into a fashion dressing to tell the same kind of stories we always get. Vast corporations doing what they want to the helpless working class started as an 80s fear in opposition to a largely hopeful view of companies from the 50s and 60s. Just because it's come true, or is still a fear, doesn't mean that it's still exciting or exploring a new frontier. Bruce Sterling was writing eco-fiction thirty years ago, about humans struggling to survive post-climate-change... except that wasn't a phrase that meant what it means to people today. The edge he was riding on in his work has now headed towards the middle. Vernor Vinge writing about true names in the early 80s was predictive; Become Human commenting about it now isn't. It doesn't make it bad or not worthy or anything, but it definitely is a move away from the bleeding edge of a predictive SF movement. "Snow Crash" and "Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson are interesting books in this sense. "Snow Crash" works best if you're a cyberpunk fan already, if it can relax into the tropes you already know and make an action movie out of it. "Diamond Age" moves away from that towards a definitely post-cyberpunk place with people who aren't criminals trying to make a buck but maybe good people trying to change the world with the power of technology. It's already shedding the trappings and trying to get somewhere else. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk.
- lobotryas 6y ago
  For Pete’s sake! The concerns and themes expressed in Shakespeare are the same as what we often see in modern media. The human condition doesn’t change much over the centuries! Why do you think it’s so bad that we continue to examine things like power dynamics, privacy, loss of identity and terrorism (all that Gibson touches upon) through new settings or against updated backdrops?
  - drhayes9 6y ago
    I don't! I literally wrote that in my comment. But it's okay to like things that aren't cutting edge or groundbreaking or Oscar-worthy, too. Critical discussion != criticism.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Don't blame authors, blame society for failing to break out of the neoliberal (or other epithet) trap started in the '80s. If we had fundamentally different struggles and anxieties now, and perhaps a different, more idealistic outlook, then different genres would emerge. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk. It's not weird at all. Consumerism has co-opted and commodified every single ideology; there's nothing wiser or more edgy or purer about cyberpunk that would have prevented this from happening to it. If anything, it's very apropos.
  - ethbro 6y ago
    > there's nothing wiser or more edgy or purer about cyberpunk that would have prevented this from happening to it. If anything, it's very apropos. But that never happened to punk musi... oh, I see your point.
- ethbro 6y ago
  Snow Crash is Last Action Hero for cyberpunk.
- chongli 6y ago
thevardanian 6y ago
One word: Hauntology. Jacques Derrida coined the neologism to describe narratives of the future. Hauntology is the idea that the present is "haunted" by lost futures, and refers to the return of elements of the past that "haunts" the present as a ghost. So imagined futures, instead of exploring new futures, itself becomes a form which is haunted by the exploration of past ideas of the future. This is the whole idea of retro-futurism that we often see these days. Here's a vid that talks about exactly what people here are trying to analyze. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg
- drhayes9 6y ago
  That made me think about this article about the lack of "the future" and "hope" in millennials: http://shoebat.com/2020/04/14/the-millennials-and-zoomers-have-no-future/ http://shoebat.com/2020/04/14/the-millennials-and-zoomers-ha... I'm intensely curious about what comes next in literature/music/movies but have very little insight into what it could be. I think focusing on marginalized experience could recontextualize the stories that came before (colonial narratives taking on a self-aware perspective when seen by different eyes), but then I wonder if that isn't just a re-packaging or a co-op or pandering. Time will hopefully tell. I'm tempted to think that the larger system has to break down more to find those stories but I don't know what "break down" means -- and who's to say those media aren't there already? I maybe just can't see them or I'm rejecting them i.e. "the noise those kids listen to these days".
  - ethbro 6y ago
    As an older millennial and prolific fiction reader (more so when I was younger and had time), there seems to be a 1:1 correlation between lack of consumption of... "intentional" creative media and lack of hope. Zoomers and younger millennials don't (as an aggregate class) seem as interested in working through challenging material, given the infinite fire hose of more easily consumed alternatives. I've shown Kurosawa, Leone, and Tarkovsky films to the demographic, and it was literally like they didn't possess the capability to focus for the requisite durations. I try to avoid being alarmist from limited sample sizes, but it honestly worries me about what "app-ification" is doing to a generation's brains.

drhayes9 6y ago

But the concerns expressed in those works were the same as the ones expressed forty years ago; that's the point the original article is making. Bethke himself used the phrase “self-referential metafiction” in describing sci-fi authors in the late 70s. I think a lot of the current cyberpunk work is the same, commoditizing an art movement into a fashion dressing to tell the same kind of stories we always get. Vast corporations doing what they want to the helpless working class started as an 80s fear in opposition to a largely hopeful view of companies from the 50s and 60s. Just because it's come true, or is still a fear, doesn't mean that it's still exciting or exploring a new frontier. Bruce Sterling was writing eco-fiction thirty years ago, about humans struggling to survive post-climate-change... except that wasn't a phrase that meant what it means to people today. The edge he was riding on in his work has now headed towards the middle. Vernor Vinge writing about true names in the early 80s was predictive; Become Human commenting about it now isn't. It doesn't make it bad or not worthy or anything, but it definitely is a move away from the bleeding edge of a predictive SF movement. "Snow Crash" and "Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson are interesting books in this sense. "Snow Crash" works best if you're a cyberpunk fan already, if it can relax into the tropes you already know and make an action movie out of it. "Diamond Age" moves away from that towards a definitely post-cyberpunk place with people who aren't criminals trying to make a buck but maybe good people trying to change the world with the power of technology. It's already shedding the trappings and trying to get somewhere else. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk.

lobotryas 6y ago
For Pete’s sake! The concerns and themes expressed in Shakespeare are the same as what we often see in modern media. The human condition doesn’t change much over the centuries! Why do you think it’s so bad that we continue to examine things like power dynamics, privacy, loss of identity and terrorism (all that Gibson touches upon) through new settings or against updated backdrops?
- drhayes9 6y ago
  I don't! I literally wrote that in my comment. But it's okay to like things that aren't cutting edge or groundbreaking or Oscar-worthy, too. Critical discussion != criticism.
Apocryphon 6y ago
Don't blame authors, blame society for failing to break out of the neoliberal (or other epithet) trap started in the '80s. If we had fundamentally different struggles and anxieties now, and perhaps a different, more idealistic outlook, then different genres would emerge. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk. It's not weird at all. Consumerism has co-opted and commodified every single ideology; there's nothing wiser or more edgy or purer about cyberpunk that would have prevented this from happening to it. If anything, it's very apropos.
- ethbro 6y ago
  > there's nothing wiser or more edgy or purer about cyberpunk that would have prevented this from happening to it. If anything, it's very apropos. But that never happened to punk musi... oh, I see your point.
ethbro 6y ago
Snow Crash is Last Action Hero for cyberpunk.
chongli 6y ago

thevardanian 6y ago

One word: Hauntology. Jacques Derrida coined the neologism to describe narratives of the future. Hauntology is the idea that the present is "haunted" by lost futures, and refers to the return of elements of the past that "haunts" the present as a ghost. So imagined futures, instead of exploring new futures, itself becomes a form which is haunted by the exploration of past ideas of the future. This is the whole idea of retro-futurism that we often see these days. Here's a vid that talks about exactly what people here are trying to analyze. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg

drhayes9 6y ago
That made me think about this article about the lack of "the future" and "hope" in millennials: http://shoebat.com/2020/04/14/the-millennials-and-zoomers-have-no-future/ http://shoebat.com/2020/04/14/the-millennials-and-zoomers-ha... I'm intensely curious about what comes next in literature/music/movies but have very little insight into what it could be. I think focusing on marginalized experience could recontextualize the stories that came before (colonial narratives taking on a self-aware perspective when seen by different eyes), but then I wonder if that isn't just a re-packaging or a co-op or pandering. Time will hopefully tell. I'm tempted to think that the larger system has to break down more to find those stories but I don't know what "break down" means -- and who's to say those media aren't there already? I maybe just can't see them or I'm rejecting them i.e. "the noise those kids listen to these days".
- ethbro 6y ago
  As an older millennial and prolific fiction reader (more so when I was younger and had time), there seems to be a 1:1 correlation between lack of consumption of... "intentional" creative media and lack of hope. Zoomers and younger millennials don't (as an aggregate class) seem as interested in working through challenging material, given the infinite fire hose of more easily consumed alternatives. I've shown Kurosawa, Leone, and Tarkovsky films to the demographic, and it was literally like they didn't possess the capability to focus for the requisite durations. I try to avoid being alarmist from limited sample sizes, but it honestly worries me about what "app-ification" is doing to a generation's brains.