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Totally unsurprising that SC is having quality issues. "We have a manager that will physically watch us while we're working on the jet and watch us as we go to

Totally unsurprising that SC is having quality issues. "We have a manager that will physically watch us while we're working on the jet and watch us as we go to the bathroom," he says. "I'm a 40-year-old military veteran and I have a 20-something-year-old manager asking me why I use time to use the bathroom." https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
I'm no manager but I'd guess some of the most basic rules of management will say "don't do this". Yet some managers do it, like they can't see the damage it's doing to trust and morale, and that it will simply not (unless under special circumstances) bring any higher quality or other value. Yet still it happens. It's so strange.
- HumblyTossed 6y ago
  Insecurity. "I'm the manager, therefore you WILL do as I say!". These people can boss people around, but they don't know how to manage.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Good management can’t be taught, it can only be learned through experience. Hence why MBAs used to require work experience or the concept of non commissioned officers in the military. You must experience the suck to learn how not to suck. With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.
    - wnevets 6y ago
      >With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business. yeah but their resume, they went to "insert super important college here"!
  - omginternets 6y ago
    Or perhaps (also) toxic pressure from above?
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      IME a good manager is an umbrella against the shit raining down from higher. I suppose they're not good so... yep. They folded.
      - arethuza 6y ago
        "There are three kinds of managers: the shit umbrella, the shit funnel and the shit fan."
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        It’s also extremely rare to find an organization with middle managers that don’t reflect the culture of the organization as a whole. If the middle management is toxic and/or incompetent, it’s a good bet that all layers of management are similar.
  - thehappypm 6y ago
    The exact opposite of good leadership, that is, leading through influence.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Micromanaging people is a lot of work, and it prevents both the IC and the manager from doing important tasks. Micromanagement either comes from managers not trusting their reports (this can have several causes), or from the manager feeling insecure and finding ways to project control or power over their charges.
- PedroBatista 6y ago
  Most of these "managers" are just farmhands like the workers. They are there to be the point of contact with the rest of the cattle, do the dirty work of enforcing whatever they were told and to accomplish that they resort to what they "know", which is micro-managing and fear. The less popular part of this whole thing is that the "quality" of the workers at this particular plant is less than "optimal" let's just leave it at that, and that issue is general knowledge since the beginning.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Human education hasn't reached to the level that people understand pain and productivity has zero or negative correlations.
vidanay 6y ago
I'd have to resist the urge to walk up to that manager and stare them in the eyes while peeing on their shoes.
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  lol that's the most appropriate answer.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  You are very badass.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't do this here.
esaym 6y ago
Sounds sucky to always be watched but, as someone that actually worked in an aircraft repair facility, we'd show up for work at 6am, then a 5 minute "break" at 8am and 10am followed by a 30 minute unpaid lunch from 12-12:30. Then another 5 minute break at 2:30pm followed by work ending at 4:30pm. And that was the schedule for Monday-Thursday followed by 8 hour days on Friday and Saturday. It got old quick and I left that field and went back to school lol. But the point is, anytime you provide 4 "breaks" a day for bathroom time, you'll get some managers staring at you for breaking the pattern. And don't forget that most tasks in aircraft assembly require 2 people. If you're installing fasteners, you've got to normally have someone on the other side of the assembly to either buck the rivet or put a nut on a bolt. So one person running for the toilet causes work to stop for others.
- txru 6y ago
  That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks. The union can work with the workers to determine how many breaks they need, and have the negotiating ability to back up workers whose breaks are being violated like above.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    > That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks. The post you're responding to just stated they had 4 breaks a day. I doubt Boeing isn't providing breaks either, since that would be illegal. It's entirely possible to have a non-union shop and still have highly skilled and fairly compensated employees. There are always going to be some employees that abuse things - people taking bathroom breaks every hour, 10 minutes at a time, etc. Those are the ones that get let go, when you're not a Union Shop. Unfortunately, for all the good Unions do, they also tend to protect exactly these sorts of employees, making it difficult or impossible to trim poorly performing employees.
    - txru 6y ago

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

I'm no manager but I'd guess some of the most basic rules of management will say "don't do this". Yet some managers do it, like they can't see the damage it's doing to trust and morale, and that it will simply not (unless under special circumstances) bring any higher quality or other value. Yet still it happens. It's so strange.

HumblyTossed 6y ago
Insecurity. "I'm the manager, therefore you WILL do as I say!". These people can boss people around, but they don't know how to manage.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Good management can’t be taught, it can only be learned through experience. Hence why MBAs used to require work experience or the concept of non commissioned officers in the military. You must experience the suck to learn how not to suck. With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.
  - wnevets 6y ago
    >With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business. yeah but their resume, they went to "insert super important college here"!
- omginternets 6y ago
  Or perhaps (also) toxic pressure from above?
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    IME a good manager is an umbrella against the shit raining down from higher. I suppose they're not good so... yep. They folded.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      "There are three kinds of managers: the shit umbrella, the shit funnel and the shit fan."
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      It’s also extremely rare to find an organization with middle managers that don’t reflect the culture of the organization as a whole. If the middle management is toxic and/or incompetent, it’s a good bet that all layers of management are similar.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  The exact opposite of good leadership, that is, leading through influence.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Micromanaging people is a lot of work, and it prevents both the IC and the manager from doing important tasks. Micromanagement either comes from managers not trusting their reports (this can have several causes), or from the manager feeling insecure and finding ways to project control or power over their charges.
PedroBatista 6y ago
Most of these "managers" are just farmhands like the workers. They are there to be the point of contact with the rest of the cattle, do the dirty work of enforcing whatever they were told and to accomplish that they resort to what they "know", which is micro-managing and fear. The less popular part of this whole thing is that the "quality" of the workers at this particular plant is less than "optimal" let's just leave it at that, and that issue is general knowledge since the beginning.
numpad0 6y ago
Human education hasn't reached to the level that people understand pain and productivity has zero or negative correlations.

vidanay 6y ago

I'd have to resist the urge to walk up to that manager and stare them in the eyes while peeing on their shoes.

markus_zhang 6y ago
lol that's the most appropriate answer.
speedgoose 6y ago
You are very badass.
dang 6y ago
Please don't do this here.

esaym 6y ago

Sounds sucky to always be watched but, as someone that actually worked in an aircraft repair facility, we'd show up for work at 6am, then a 5 minute "break" at 8am and 10am followed by a 30 minute unpaid lunch from 12-12:30. Then another 5 minute break at 2:30pm followed by work ending at 4:30pm. And that was the schedule for Monday-Thursday followed by 8 hour days on Friday and Saturday. It got old quick and I left that field and went back to school lol. But the point is, anytime you provide 4 "breaks" a day for bathroom time, you'll get some managers staring at you for breaking the pattern. And don't forget that most tasks in aircraft assembly require 2 people. If you're installing fasteners, you've got to normally have someone on the other side of the assembly to either buck the rivet or put a nut on a bolt. So one person running for the toilet causes work to stop for others.

txru 6y ago
That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks. The union can work with the workers to determine how many breaks they need, and have the negotiating ability to back up workers whose breaks are being violated like above.
- Alupis 6y ago
  > That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks. The post you're responding to just stated they had 4 breaks a day. I doubt Boeing isn't providing breaks either, since that would be illegal. It's entirely possible to have a non-union shop and still have highly skilled and fairly compensated employees. There are always going to be some employees that abuse things - people taking bathroom breaks every hour, 10 minutes at a time, etc. Those are the ones that get let go, when you're not a Union Shop. Unfortunately, for all the good Unions do, they also tend to protect exactly these sorts of employees, making it difficult or impossible to trim poorly performing employees.
  - txru 6y ago