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His point is that, with some exceptions (Ghost in the Shell), much of the modern work you cite is a regurgitation of the earliest ideas of the genre which have

His point is that, with some exceptions (Ghost in the Shell), much of the modern work you cite is a regurgitation of the earliest ideas of the genre which have themselves hardened into tropes. Gibson found the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer exceedingly retro and 80s because its imagined future repeats anxieties and themes which were most relevant in the 1980s, when the genre first appeared. The return to these “ancient futures” isn’t really punk, it’s kitsch. But to do the thing those early authors did would be to continually approach the present with the same mindset for interrogating it and see what appears.

badsectoracula 6y ago
Keep in mind that Cyberpunk 2077 is an adaptation of an existing P&P RPG from the 80s with those retro themes, not a world made from scratch.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  Oh interesting, I've only looked at some scenary and the announcement trailer because I didn't want to spoil anything for myself. I mean if that's the case then their goal isn't really to make a modern adaptation of the Cyberpunk themes, it's to stay faithful to the themes presented in that RPG and criticizing it for not modernizing the genre is a little silly.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    Yes, the Cyberpunk RPG is one of the classics of the genre. Originally set in the then-future of 2013, by titling the videogame Cyberpunk 2077 they are playing with the fact that the RPG's editions continued to push the timeline in their titles (Cyberpunk 2020 was released in 1990, for instance), and makes something of a case for 64 years of "alternate future history" now from the original Cyberpunk 2013 setting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_(role-playing_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_(role-playing_game)
    - Grimm1 6y ago
      Oh neat, thank you for the link.
      - ethbro 6y ago
        Most of the source books are still in print. There are a few that are harder to find. https://talsorianstore.com/collections/cyberpunk https://talsorianstore.com/collections/cyberpunk
        WorldMaker 6y ago
        Also Cyberpunk Red, a new 4th Edition was supposed to come out this year, but obviously got delayed by COVID just as the videogame did. It's edition name of "Red" a direct homage to CD Projekt Red and includes some collaborative efforts with the videogame on the combined and updated timeline. (Cyberpunk Red will be set in 2045, set up some plots that directly effect the videogame's 2077, and also retcon some of the pieces of 3rd Edition's timeline that they didn't think should carry forward and are now alternate future history to alternate future history.)
Grimm1 6y ago
Right but I guess my point is that re-exploring and re-contextualizing those ideas for a modern audience has a place in carrying the torch. Cyberpunk 2077 gave me strong Akira vibes from the character aesthetics and the scenery is what I imagine the sprawl would look like. This can be fine as long as the story can carry it's own points and isn't just regurgitation as you put it. This however, remains to be seen. So far I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Detroit Become human do the best job of re-contextualizing and extending cyberpunk ideas for a modern audience along with Ghost in the Shell SAC and 2nd Gig as a little earlier on works. I think if you differ too far from the original ideas you're not in Cyberpunk anymore and now you've entered into a new genre. Perhaps that is appropriate, just not if you're trying to make a Cyberpunk work imo because necessarily they must share some core ideas from the original works to remain in the genre. That said this makes it a very fine line to walk between a work that makes points of its own drawing from the original works and derivative crap.
jjoonathan 6y ago
> regurgitation Somebody's an essayist. In any case, I'll grant you that the 80s cars and CRT theming are retro-futuristic, but those are all surface-level, as Gibson himself points out. However, I think the criticism loses steam if you try to apply it below the surface, even just a little. Social media, political troll gangs, cheap drones, and military + police robotics played a big part in Watchdogs, and those are all modern or forward-looking. Deus Ex's human augmentation is still forward-looking. AI integration in Detroit Become Human is still forward-looking, even if it isn't terribly imaginative. The interactions of technology, poverty, and crime common to all of these are still forward looking, even if in hindsight they failed to predict some big trends (e.g. social media boosting conspiracy groups and the "traditional hustles" of self-help and alternative medicine). Regardless, the artists are still using their imaginations. It's the critics who see an 80s car, call it kitsch to get engagement, and miss everything of substance.
- drhayes9 6y ago
  But the concerns expressed in those works were the same as the ones expressed forty years ago; that's the point the original article is making. Bethke himself used the phrase “self-referential metafiction” in describing sci-fi authors in the late 70s. I think a lot of the current cyberpunk work is the same, commoditizing an art movement into a fashion dressing to tell the same kind of stories we always get. Vast corporations doing what they want to the helpless working class started as an 80s fear in opposition to a largely hopeful view of companies from the 50s and 60s. Just because it's come true, or is still a fear, doesn't mean that it's still exciting or exploring a new frontier. Bruce Sterling was writing eco-fiction thirty years ago, about humans struggling to survive post-climate-change... except that wasn't a phrase that meant what it means to people today. The edge he was riding on in his work has now headed towards the middle. Vernor Vinge writing about true names in the early 80s was predictive; Become Human commenting about it now isn't. It doesn't make it bad or not worthy or anything, but it definitely is a move away from the bleeding edge of a predictive SF movement. "Snow Crash" and "Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson are interesting books in this sense. "Snow Crash" works best if you're a cyberpunk fan already, if it can relax into the tropes you already know and make an action movie out of it. "Diamond Age" moves away from that towards a definitely post-cyberpunk place with people who aren't criminals trying to make a buck but maybe good people trying to change the world with the power of technology. It's already shedding the trappings and trying to get somewhere else. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk.
strbean 6y ago
It's kind of hard to come up with new futurological themes and anxieties when the foundational works were so prescient :) What would be the new ones? Universal surveillance? Pretty sure that was covered. Ubiquitous AI becoming malevolent or just generally shifty? Done to death. Did Altered Carbon have anything new with technological advancements leading to immortality? I'm sure that was done at some point... and the book came out almost 20 years ago. The latest season of Westworld was fun, but most of the cyberpunk elements are recycled, with a veneer of solarpunk. Fancy techno-drugs have certainly been done before.
- uncletaco 6y ago
  I want an epistolary murder mystery that takes the form of a thread on a popular website that includes the killer dropping hints and evidence of his crime. When it comes out half the fun will be figuring out which anonymous posts belong to the same person and letting the readers solve the mystery of figuring out which one of the trolls was also the killer.
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    If you're into anime, Psycho Pass had a few episode subplot that pretty much was that, minus the in letter format.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      And didn't Ghost in the Shell show have plot lines like that, such as the Laughing Man?
      - Grimm1 6y ago
        Kind of but without spoiling anything that was mostly conjecture by the general populace. A lot of the scenes where Motoko is on the VR-esque message boards are other people speculating on the Laughing Man's motives. Edit: Though on quick second thought I think there is at least one instance where he does contact her in that space.
  - 6y ago
nip180 6y ago
> Gibson found the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer exceedingly retro To be fair Gibson is often critical of works inspired by his novels and the genre he created.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  He's a fuddy-duddy about Shadowrun, too. (Thursday, May 08, 2003 entry) https://web.archive.org/web/20030811223349/http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/archive/2003_05_01_archive.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20030811223349/http://www.willia... It's understandable in that a genre's pioneer might scoff at descendent works. But that sort of purism also feels gatekeeping and snobby. I certainly can't imagine Sterling or Stephenson being so purist about the genre.
voldacar 6y ago
except punk is kitsch now, and arguably has been for quite a while
peterthehacker 6y ago
It’s not fair to critique a film or video game based on its trailer. The phrase “don’t judge a book by its cover” comes to mind. Let’s suspend judgment of Cyberpunk 2077 until it’s released in a couple months. They surprised everyone with how awesome Witcher 3 was, so let’s give CD Projekt the benefit of the doubt.
- beenBoutIT 6y ago
  Curious how Cyberpunk 2077 will deal with first person POV problems like taking cover behind objects or going up a steep incline. Good open worlds have so much going on that it's usually much more efficient to view them through a big picture 3rd person POV. A dedicated 'real life' point of view like the one that Cyberpunk 2077 has adopted reveals only a fraction of the context that can be gained from the same scene viewed from a 3rd person POV.
LoSboccacc 6y ago
> isn’t really punk, it’s kitsch that's a weird point of view. would steampunk in a non Victorian retro-future even work? are we gonna rename futurism if it doesn't keep up with times? then why is this fixation with cyberpunk being rooted in the now?
lemoncookiechip 6y ago
> Gibson found the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer exceedingly retro and 80s because its imagined future repeats anxieties and themes which were most relevant in the 1980s, when the genre first appeared. The genre itself actually dates back to the 60s.

badsectoracula 6y ago

Keep in mind that Cyberpunk 2077 is an adaptation of an existing P&P RPG from the 80s with those retro themes, not a world made from scratch.

Grimm1 6y ago
Oh interesting, I've only looked at some scenary and the announcement trailer because I didn't want to spoil anything for myself. I mean if that's the case then their goal isn't really to make a modern adaptation of the Cyberpunk themes, it's to stay faithful to the themes presented in that RPG and criticizing it for not modernizing the genre is a little silly.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  Yes, the Cyberpunk RPG is one of the classics of the genre. Originally set in the then-future of 2013, by titling the videogame Cyberpunk 2077 they are playing with the fact that the RPG's editions continued to push the timeline in their titles (Cyberpunk 2020 was released in 1990, for instance), and makes something of a case for 64 years of "alternate future history" now from the original Cyberpunk 2013 setting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_(role-playing_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_(role-playing_game)
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    Oh neat, thank you for the link.
    - ethbro 6y ago
      Most of the source books are still in print. There are a few that are harder to find. https://talsorianstore.com/collections/cyberpunk https://talsorianstore.com/collections/cyberpunk
      - WorldMaker 6y ago
        Also Cyberpunk Red, a new 4th Edition was supposed to come out this year, but obviously got delayed by COVID just as the videogame did. It's edition name of "Red" a direct homage to CD Projekt Red and includes some collaborative efforts with the videogame on the combined and updated timeline. (Cyberpunk Red will be set in 2045, set up some plots that directly effect the videogame's 2077, and also retcon some of the pieces of 3rd Edition's timeline that they didn't think should carry forward and are now alternate future history to alternate future history.)

Grimm1 6y ago

Right but I guess my point is that re-exploring and re-contextualizing those ideas for a modern audience has a place in carrying the torch. Cyberpunk 2077 gave me strong Akira vibes from the character aesthetics and the scenery is what I imagine the sprawl would look like. This can be fine as long as the story can carry it's own points and isn't just regurgitation as you put it. This however, remains to be seen. So far I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Detroit Become human do the best job of re-contextualizing and extending cyberpunk ideas for a modern audience along with Ghost in the Shell SAC and 2nd Gig as a little earlier on works. I think if you differ too far from the original ideas you're not in Cyberpunk anymore and now you've entered into a new genre. Perhaps that is appropriate, just not if you're trying to make a Cyberpunk work imo because necessarily they must share some core ideas from the original works to remain in the genre. That said this makes it a very fine line to walk between a work that makes points of its own drawing from the original works and derivative crap.

jjoonathan 6y ago

> regurgitation Somebody's an essayist. In any case, I'll grant you that the 80s cars and CRT theming are retro-futuristic, but those are all surface-level, as Gibson himself points out. However, I think the criticism loses steam if you try to apply it below the surface, even just a little. Social media, political troll gangs, cheap drones, and military + police robotics played a big part in Watchdogs, and those are all modern or forward-looking. Deus Ex's human augmentation is still forward-looking. AI integration in Detroit Become Human is still forward-looking, even if it isn't terribly imaginative. The interactions of technology, poverty, and crime common to all of these are still forward looking, even if in hindsight they failed to predict some big trends (e.g. social media boosting conspiracy groups and the "traditional hustles" of self-help and alternative medicine). Regardless, the artists are still using their imaginations. It's the critics who see an 80s car, call it kitsch to get engagement, and miss everything of substance.

drhayes9 6y ago
But the concerns expressed in those works were the same as the ones expressed forty years ago; that's the point the original article is making. Bethke himself used the phrase “self-referential metafiction” in describing sci-fi authors in the late 70s. I think a lot of the current cyberpunk work is the same, commoditizing an art movement into a fashion dressing to tell the same kind of stories we always get. Vast corporations doing what they want to the helpless working class started as an 80s fear in opposition to a largely hopeful view of companies from the 50s and 60s. Just because it's come true, or is still a fear, doesn't mean that it's still exciting or exploring a new frontier. Bruce Sterling was writing eco-fiction thirty years ago, about humans struggling to survive post-climate-change... except that wasn't a phrase that meant what it means to people today. The edge he was riding on in his work has now headed towards the middle. Vernor Vinge writing about true names in the early 80s was predictive; Become Human commenting about it now isn't. It doesn't make it bad or not worthy or anything, but it definitely is a move away from the bleeding edge of a predictive SF movement. "Snow Crash" and "Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson are interesting books in this sense. "Snow Crash" works best if you're a cyberpunk fan already, if it can relax into the tropes you already know and make an action movie out of it. "Diamond Age" moves away from that towards a definitely post-cyberpunk place with people who aren't criminals trying to make a buck but maybe good people trying to change the world with the power of technology. It's already shedding the trappings and trying to get somewhere else. It's gotta be a little weird for these authors to see their "movement" co-opted into big media properties that make millions of dollars for big companies. Somebody else said it in these comments; that's not very punk.

strbean 6y ago

It's kind of hard to come up with new futurological themes and anxieties when the foundational works were so prescient :) What would be the new ones? Universal surveillance? Pretty sure that was covered. Ubiquitous AI becoming malevolent or just generally shifty? Done to death. Did Altered Carbon have anything new with technological advancements leading to immortality? I'm sure that was done at some point... and the book came out almost 20 years ago. The latest season of Westworld was fun, but most of the cyberpunk elements are recycled, with a veneer of solarpunk. Fancy techno-drugs have certainly been done before.

uncletaco 6y ago
I want an epistolary murder mystery that takes the form of a thread on a popular website that includes the killer dropping hints and evidence of his crime. When it comes out half the fun will be figuring out which anonymous posts belong to the same person and letting the readers solve the mystery of figuring out which one of the trolls was also the killer.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  If you're into anime, Psycho Pass had a few episode subplot that pretty much was that, minus the in letter format.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    And didn't Ghost in the Shell show have plot lines like that, such as the Laughing Man?
    - Grimm1 6y ago
      Kind of but without spoiling anything that was mostly conjecture by the general populace. A lot of the scenes where Motoko is on the VR-esque message boards are other people speculating on the Laughing Man's motives. Edit: Though on quick second thought I think there is at least one instance where he does contact her in that space.
- 6y ago

nip180 6y ago

> Gibson found the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer exceedingly retro To be fair Gibson is often critical of works inspired by his novels and the genre he created.

Apocryphon 6y ago
He's a fuddy-duddy about Shadowrun, too. (Thursday, May 08, 2003 entry) https://web.archive.org/web/20030811223349/http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/archive/2003_05_01_archive.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20030811223349/http://www.willia... It's understandable in that a genre's pioneer might scoff at descendent works. But that sort of purism also feels gatekeeping and snobby. I certainly can't imagine Sterling or Stephenson being so purist about the genre.

voldacar 6y ago

except punk is kitsch now, and arguably has been for quite a while

peterthehacker 6y ago

It’s not fair to critique a film or video game based on its trailer. The phrase “don’t judge a book by its cover” comes to mind. Let’s suspend judgment of Cyberpunk 2077 until it’s released in a couple months. They surprised everyone with how awesome Witcher 3 was, so let’s give CD Projekt the benefit of the doubt.

beenBoutIT 6y ago
Curious how Cyberpunk 2077 will deal with first person POV problems like taking cover behind objects or going up a steep incline. Good open worlds have so much going on that it's usually much more efficient to view them through a big picture 3rd person POV. A dedicated 'real life' point of view like the one that Cyberpunk 2077 has adopted reveals only a fraction of the context that can be gained from the same scene viewed from a 3rd person POV.

LoSboccacc 6y ago

> isn’t really punk, it’s kitsch that's a weird point of view. would steampunk in a non Victorian retro-future even work? are we gonna rename futurism if it doesn't keep up with times? then why is this fixation with cyberpunk being rooted in the now?

lemoncookiechip 6y ago

> Gibson found the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer exceedingly retro and 80s because its imagined future repeats anxieties and themes which were most relevant in the 1980s, when the genre first appeared. The genre itself actually dates back to the 60s.