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"The pieces are fabricated and joined with the aft pressure bulkhead at Boeing’s North Charleston, S.C. plant and then delivered for final assembly to the compa

by russb 6y ago

"The pieces are fabricated and joined with the aft pressure bulkhead at Boeing’s North Charleston, S.C. plant and then delivered for final assembly to the company’s nearby final assembly building or flown to Everett, Wash." Not the first time quality control has been an issue at the N.C. plant. From a New York Times article back in 2019: "Ever since, Qatar has bought only Dreamliners built in Everett." [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamliner-production-problems.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamline...

flowerlad 6y ago
And yet they are closing the Everett factory: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/losing-787-would-be-major-headwind-for-regions-economy/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/losing-787-would-be-ma...
- hinkley 6y ago
  That’s a speculative piece and the one it links to is as well. The 787 was designed to not require as much infrastructure as the Everett plant has to offer. I’m out of the loop, but Wikipedia still lists most of the rest of their catalog as being produced in Everett, and the new 777 is coming online. Sounds more like having to choose between 787 capacity and other production lines. I’m not sure where they get losing the 787 meaning nothing to backfill it. For those specific employees, changing programs may be difficult and not all of them will be picked up, but for the region, I don’t see how this means 30k fewer jobs. Also Everett does other things besides assembly. I think most of their IT and a few other programs are there.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Yes, as part of a long-running union busting campaign. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/03/boeing-union-workers-fired-south-carolina https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/03/boeing-union... > Boeing’s mere presence in South Carolina was already viewed as a union-busting move when the company first opened an aircraft production plant there in 2011 rather than Washington state, where Boeing had unionized operations. South Carolina has the lowest union membership rate in the United States at just 2.7% of workers. The National Labor Relations Board filed a federal complaint against Boeing for the move, accusing the company of violating federal labor law, before dropping it after the company came to an agreement with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM).
ceejayoz 6y ago
> Managers were also urged to not hire unionized employees from the Boeing factory in Everett, where the Dreamliner is also made, according to two former employees. > “They didn’t want us bringing union employees out to a nonunion area,” said David Kitson, a former quality manager, who oversaw a team responsible for ensuring that planes are safe to fly. > “We struggled with that,” said Mr. Kitson, who retired in 2015. “There wasn’t the qualified labor pool locally.” Another former manager, Michael Storey, confirmed his account. Oops.
- hinkley 6y ago
  The entire 787 project plan smelled like union busting to me. I was very surprised they didn’t strike over it. But the company also has regrets about how the project was run and vowed not to do that again. I doubt that applies to the [SC] part of the equation, though.
  - xnyan 6y ago
    *SC. “At least we’re not South Carolina”, the mantra of North Carolina
    - jkaptur 6y ago
      I think it stands for "North Charleston" in this context.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      Apologies both to the fine people of North Carolina and the good people of Charleston. You do not all look the same and I did not mean to imply that Charleston has anything to do with North Carolina. (I'm from the midwest, we take our cross-border rivalries far more seriously than should be legal, but nobody outside the midwest can tell you the difference between Iowa/Illinois/Indiana/Missouri and have no qualms about saying it to your face. The struggle is real)
    - hinkley 6y ago
      People from Illinois pronounce it, ill eh NOY or ill uh NOY (even though proper french would be ill EE nwah) and get pissed when people from Wiscaaaahnseeehn pronounce it ILL uh noise. It is clear they are aware of this. But people from Missouri (especially southern) may pronounce their state as misery. Having known someone who moved away from there, I'm assured this is perfectly accurate. Biases may have been involved, but 'state of misery' jokes basically write themselves.
Pfhreak 6y ago
I was at Boeing when that plant opened up. I recall it specifically being talked about in hushed tones as a place where there would be no unions, and thus they could hire cheaper labor. Don't get me wrong, the Everett plant certainly has had issues in the past (there are plenty of signs hanging up about Foreign Object Debris), but the company seems to have targeted cost cutting as priority one.
- akamia 6y ago
  I was there at the same time and I remember the exact same thing. There was a lot of talk about this being used to offset some of the losses caused by any future union strikes and also as leverage when negotiating with the unions. I also remember that there were consistent ongoing quality issues. Planes from SC would require significant rework when they arrived in Everett.
  - virtue3 6y ago
    It's almost like union employees under fair management do a better job or something /s
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      The auto industry seemed to provide a counterexample, or at least showed that the "management" part was the deciding factor. If I were Boeing, I'd also be looking into the possibility of sabotage, but it's more likely cost cutting.
      - djsumdog 6y ago
        Yea I knew Peterbuilt an engineer who talked at how bad the work was at the Nashville/union plant. He watch people get fired for gross negligence, be hired back a month later. There are several fleets who would specifically order trucks from the other two non-union plants.
- pc86 6y ago
  Companies wanting to operate in places without unions because the labor is cheaper isn't exactly the kind of thing that requires "hushed tones."
aaronbrethorst 6y ago
Totally unsurprising that SC is having quality issues. "We have a manager that will physically watch us while we're working on the jet and watch us as we go to the bathroom," he says. "I'm a 40-year-old military veteran and I have a 20-something-year-old manager asking me why I use time to use the bathroom." https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  I'm no manager but I'd guess some of the most basic rules of management will say "don't do this". Yet some managers do it, like they can't see the damage it's doing to trust and morale, and that it will simply not (unless under special circumstances) bring any higher quality or other value. Yet still it happens. It's so strange.
  - HumblyTossed 6y ago
    Insecurity. "I'm the manager, therefore you WILL do as I say!". These people can boss people around, but they don't know how to manage.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Good management can’t be taught, it can only be learned through experience. Hence why MBAs used to require work experience or the concept of non commissioned officers in the military. You must experience the suck to learn how not to suck. With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.
      - wnevets 6y ago
        >With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business. yeah but their resume, they went to "insert super important college here"!
piva00 6y ago
Interestingly I found out about Boeing's N.C. plant quality control issues from an Al-Jazeera report on the 787 [0] way back in 2014. The part about the plant has an interview with an employee recording other employees worried about safety, training and other issues. There is a Q&A with a Boeing VP that is interrupted by some PR/legal aide when questions about quality issues in Charleston start. It's an ongoing issue for quite a long time... [0] https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os?t=1434 https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os?t=1434 (I've timestamped to the relevant part about the Charleston plant)
- PedroBatista 6y ago
  It has been an issue since the very beginning. The play from Boeing was obviously to cut costs and since many states in the US have been plagued by the complete collapse of manufacturing jobs since at least the 70's they are willing to give Boeing tax cuts and incentives by the billions. The only small problem is that they turned this plant into a sweatshop, not only the workers have no aviation culture but people in power seem to think they are bolting on just another Ford Pinto like the old days.
erentz 6y ago
And now Boeing is mulling closing 787 production in WA and moving it all to SC.
- PedroBatista 6y ago
  The SC thing was to save on costs, now since this many years passed and no one got killed ( yet ), they are confident they can move it all there, where the sun is bright, the unions are pretty and the wages are low.

by russb 6y ago

flowerlad 6y ago

And yet they are closing the Everett factory: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/losing-787-would-be-major-headwind-for-regions-economy/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/losing-787-would-be-ma...

hinkley 6y ago
That’s a speculative piece and the one it links to is as well. The 787 was designed to not require as much infrastructure as the Everett plant has to offer. I’m out of the loop, but Wikipedia still lists most of the rest of their catalog as being produced in Everett, and the new 777 is coming online. Sounds more like having to choose between 787 capacity and other production lines. I’m not sure where they get losing the 787 meaning nothing to backfill it. For those specific employees, changing programs may be difficult and not all of them will be picked up, but for the region, I don’t see how this means 30k fewer jobs. Also Everett does other things besides assembly. I think most of their IT and a few other programs are there.
ceejayoz 6y ago
Yes, as part of a long-running union busting campaign. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/03/boeing-union-workers-fired-south-carolina https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/03/boeing-union... > Boeing’s mere presence in South Carolina was already viewed as a union-busting move when the company first opened an aircraft production plant there in 2011 rather than Washington state, where Boeing had unionized operations. South Carolina has the lowest union membership rate in the United States at just 2.7% of workers. The National Labor Relations Board filed a federal complaint against Boeing for the move, accusing the company of violating federal labor law, before dropping it after the company came to an agreement with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM).

ceejayoz 6y ago

> Managers were also urged to not hire unionized employees from the Boeing factory in Everett, where the Dreamliner is also made, according to two former employees. > “They didn’t want us bringing union employees out to a nonunion area,” said David Kitson, a former quality manager, who oversaw a team responsible for ensuring that planes are safe to fly. > “We struggled with that,” said Mr. Kitson, who retired in 2015. “There wasn’t the qualified labor pool locally.” Another former manager, Michael Storey, confirmed his account. Oops.

hinkley 6y ago
The entire 787 project plan smelled like union busting to me. I was very surprised they didn’t strike over it. But the company also has regrets about how the project was run and vowed not to do that again. I doubt that applies to the [SC] part of the equation, though.
- xnyan 6y ago
  *SC. “At least we’re not South Carolina”, the mantra of North Carolina
  - jkaptur 6y ago
    I think it stands for "North Charleston" in this context.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Apologies both to the fine people of North Carolina and the good people of Charleston. You do not all look the same and I did not mean to imply that Charleston has anything to do with North Carolina. (I'm from the midwest, we take our cross-border rivalries far more seriously than should be legal, but nobody outside the midwest can tell you the difference between Iowa/Illinois/Indiana/Missouri and have no qualms about saying it to your face. The struggle is real)
  - hinkley 6y ago
    People from Illinois pronounce it, ill eh NOY or ill uh NOY (even though proper french would be ill EE nwah) and get pissed when people from Wiscaaaahnseeehn pronounce it ILL uh noise. It is clear they are aware of this. But people from Missouri (especially southern) may pronounce their state as misery. Having known someone who moved away from there, I'm assured this is perfectly accurate. Biases may have been involved, but 'state of misery' jokes basically write themselves.

Pfhreak 6y ago

I was at Boeing when that plant opened up. I recall it specifically being talked about in hushed tones as a place where there would be no unions, and thus they could hire cheaper labor. Don't get me wrong, the Everett plant certainly has had issues in the past (there are plenty of signs hanging up about Foreign Object Debris), but the company seems to have targeted cost cutting as priority one.

akamia 6y ago
I was there at the same time and I remember the exact same thing. There was a lot of talk about this being used to offset some of the losses caused by any future union strikes and also as leverage when negotiating with the unions. I also remember that there were consistent ongoing quality issues. Planes from SC would require significant rework when they arrived in Everett.
- virtue3 6y ago
  It's almost like union employees under fair management do a better job or something /s
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    The auto industry seemed to provide a counterexample, or at least showed that the "management" part was the deciding factor. If I were Boeing, I'd also be looking into the possibility of sabotage, but it's more likely cost cutting.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      Yea I knew Peterbuilt an engineer who talked at how bad the work was at the Nashville/union plant. He watch people get fired for gross negligence, be hired back a month later. There are several fleets who would specifically order trucks from the other two non-union plants.
pc86 6y ago
Companies wanting to operate in places without unions because the labor is cheaper isn't exactly the kind of thing that requires "hushed tones."

aaronbrethorst 6y ago

Totally unsurprising that SC is having quality issues. "We have a manager that will physically watch us while we're working on the jet and watch us as we go to the bathroom," he says. "I'm a 40-year-old military veteran and I have a 20-something-year-old manager asking me why I use time to use the bathroom." https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
I'm no manager but I'd guess some of the most basic rules of management will say "don't do this". Yet some managers do it, like they can't see the damage it's doing to trust and morale, and that it will simply not (unless under special circumstances) bring any higher quality or other value. Yet still it happens. It's so strange.
- HumblyTossed 6y ago
  Insecurity. "I'm the manager, therefore you WILL do as I say!". These people can boss people around, but they don't know how to manage.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Good management can’t be taught, it can only be learned through experience. Hence why MBAs used to require work experience or the concept of non commissioned officers in the military. You must experience the suck to learn how not to suck. With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.
    - wnevets 6y ago
      >With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business. yeah but their resume, they went to "insert super important college here"!

piva00 6y ago

Interestingly I found out about Boeing's N.C. plant quality control issues from an Al-Jazeera report on the 787 [0] way back in 2014. The part about the plant has an interview with an employee recording other employees worried about safety, training and other issues. There is a Q&A with a Boeing VP that is interrupted by some PR/legal aide when questions about quality issues in Charleston start. It's an ongoing issue for quite a long time... [0] https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os?t=1434 https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os?t=1434 (I've timestamped to the relevant part about the Charleston plant)

PedroBatista 6y ago
It has been an issue since the very beginning. The play from Boeing was obviously to cut costs and since many states in the US have been plagued by the complete collapse of manufacturing jobs since at least the 70's they are willing to give Boeing tax cuts and incentives by the billions. The only small problem is that they turned this plant into a sweatshop, not only the workers have no aviation culture but people in power seem to think they are bolting on just another Ford Pinto like the old days.

erentz 6y ago

And now Boeing is mulling closing 787 production in WA and moving it all to SC.

PedroBatista 6y ago
The SC thing was to save on costs, now since this many years passed and no one got killed ( yet ), they are confident they can move it all there, where the sun is bright, the unions are pretty and the wages are low.