5 ms·

I think a lot of young(er) people like me who would otherwise get into ham radio are being sniped by SDR. You can buy a $30 piece of hardware and listen to plan

I think a lot of young(er) people like me who would otherwise get into ham radio are being sniped by SDR. You can buy a $30 piece of hardware and listen to planes talking to the airport, see weather imaging from satellites, intercept and read pager messages, listen to emergency and police radio, listen to all channels of consumer grade walkie talkies, and also just generally see the invisible world of wireless communications going on around us. For a few hundred dollars, you can transmit things back. All on frequencies that require no license with equipment that is very cheap compared to ham radio.

wrkronmiller 6y ago
As someone who holds but doesn't use a Technician Class license, I completely agree. As someone commented below, sending encrypted data over HAM frequencies is not allowed (IANAL), which also rules out a lot of interesting projects and use-cases.
- mikece 6y ago
  There is a proviso that goes with that. If you're doing a metro-area mesh network (some of the WiFi overlap with the 2.4GHz amateur band!) you can use WEP or WPA as long as the password for joining the network is "publicly available." Putting the current password on the website for the club/group running the project is sufficient to demonstrate, for FCC purposes, that the communications are open.
  - Retr0spectrum 6y ago
    What happens if I use SSL over the top of such a network? Is that allowed? If the answer is yes, it seems more like a loophole in the rules than anything.
    - hpoe 6y ago
      Probably not. These rules were put in place to prevent spies from using HAM to exfil data during the Cold War. Really I think it should be something that should be revisited but I don't know how the 3 letter agency's would like a method of communication that they can't access.
      - detaro 6y ago
        Preventing commercial use is still a major argument used.
        wcfields 6y ago
        I see that raised a lot as a concern but I can’t imagine it has any legs nowadays. Previously, in the 1980’s, yes I could see a Taxi/Plumber/etc using amateur radio equipment as a cheaper workaround for their business, but now it’s so much cheaper (and better) to use cellular or, if you really needed business radios they aren’t crazy expensive as they once were.
        kube-system 6y ago
        There's a ton of people using BaoFeng radios without a license. Every once in a while, some ignorant middle manager at a larger company buys a bunch and the FCC cites them.
        noodlesUK 6y ago
        I’ve actually seen baofengs with little stubby antennas used by various government employees without licenses, for instance workers at the DEQ near me. I’m not a dick so I’m not gonna call the fcc on them, but it’d be funny to see that.
        bityard 6y ago
        The reason for the rules against commercial activity on the ham bands was originally to keep hams from competing with commercial services, not the other way around. However, as an ham radio license holder, I would still not want to see our amateur radio frequencies, which are purposefully set aside by the FCC for hobby and experimental use, used for any commercial purposes at all. Commercial radio has its own spectrum and rules, and the cost to use it is not insignificant. Many businesses in my area still use radio because it is more reliable and controllable than the services provided by mobile operators. A lot of these would absolutely jump at the chance to use the ham bands and ditch their expensive commercial equipment, regulation, and fees if it were legal to do so. For non-local communications, HFT companies have been looking at the HF bands for years to shave a few milliseconds off their micro-arbitrage transactions (compared to wired networks) and ham radio has the largest chunk of spectrum after the military.
iNate2000 6y ago
That’s exactly how I got into amateur radio. First a receiver and fascination with all the signals I could find. Then the discovery that for a couple hundred dollars I COULD TRANSMIT TOO???!!!!!! Except that my receiver was a “police scanner” and my transmitters were various “walkie talkies” (first CB, then 2m amateur repeaters.) What you are describing IS radio as a hobby. If SDR had existed back then, I would have totally tried it out. It’s just Moore’s law making insanely advanced technology accessible. I love living in the future!
Heliosmaster 6y ago
Any recommended resources to get started with SDR?
- lozaning 6y ago
  The sub $30 RTL-SDR and SDR# software, is more or less the defacto standard starting point.
- iNate2000 6y ago
  “RTL-SDR” is amazing! “RTL” is from a particular chipset that has great support for hackability.” There a few different apps that can decode signals from it. I even got a USB-OTG (“on-the-go”) adapter and used my RTL dongle with an app on an Android phone. And that was 5ish years ago.
- th0ma5 6y ago
  Get this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009U7WZCA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_jlssFbEVGX4RH https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009U7WZCA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_jl... Or this nicer one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011HVUEME/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ZlssFbC5YTAS6 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011HVUEME/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Zl... Sdr# for Windows. GQRX for the others. For a blog with help and project ideas check out http://www.rtlsdr.com/ http://www.rtlsdr.com/
- throwaway3neu94 6y ago
  See this post I wrote in an earlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23468796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23468796
- wila 6y ago
  You can even get started without buying anything, there's an SDR website where you can experiment with a remote SDR. It's in the Netherlands. Just browse to here: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/ http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/
- flyinghamster 6y ago
  I have a couple of NESDR Smart dongles from NooElec [1], that have worked very well for me. I run them on a Raspberry Pi 3 and pipe audio output to my desktop or laptop with PulseAudio. Aside from SDR# on Windows and gqrx on Linux, there's also GNU Radio [2] and a variety of lightweight applications that can run on, let's say, a Raspberry Pi Zero [3]. Oona Räisänen has a fascinating blog that touches on digital signal processing as well, applicable to SDRs as well. Me? No ham license, but that may come someday. [1] https://www.nooelec.com/store/ https://www.nooelec.com/store/ [2] https://www.gnuradio.org/ https://www.gnuradio.org/ [3] https://osmocom.org/projects/rtl-sdr/wiki/Rtl-sdr https://osmocom.org/projects/rtl-sdr/wiki/Rtl-sdr [4] https://www.windytan.com/ https://www.windytan.com/
facedeoderant 6y ago
Specifically you're talking about RTL-SDR, a hacked soundcard that can receive a lot of frequencies. The channels you can legally transmit back on for a few hudred dollars more are FRS/GMRS family/business radio channels. (Speaking about USA only here, since that's the only radio location I know about). tl;dr for the rest of my post: ham radio is the best type of radio for hackers. Undoubtedly you can have tons of fun with a $30 RTL-SDR and basic antenna, but there are lots of things you can do with ham radio once you grow tired of that, or if you find yourself being interested in how radio works generally, but more fundamentally, you can actually talk to people who are _actively hacking on the same types of things you are_ using projects you've both worked on, maybe together. Regarding FRS/GMRS walkie talkie frequencies: these are UHF (Ultra High Frequency) frequencies, which means a couple of things: range is limited to well under a mile in most conditions, and building a radio to work on FRS or GMRS would be _possible_, but would require a lot of specialized equipment and maybe an engineering degree. Additionally, power is extremely limited on these radios, so you might be able to transmit back, but you'd better be near the business's parking lot to do so legally. Again, as far as a hobby goes, try breaking in on the Chik Fil A drive-thru attendant's recitation of someone's waffle fry order to ask whether you're coming in clearly on your home-built radio. Ham radio has a community that's thriving and full of fun for new and/or young modern hackers. You just have to know where to look. For starters, consider Ham Radio Village at DEFCON (https://hamvillage.org https://hamvillage.org) or the online Young Amateur Radio Club (https://yarc.world/ https://yarc.world/) (an inclusive and active club centered around a Discord channel full of people interested in the latest tech in ham radio), or Ham Radio Workbench Podcast (https://twitter.com/HamWorkbench https://twitter.com/HamWorkbench) (a podcast focusing on the latest in ham radio with a focus on new technologies and the intersection with the maker sphere). Hackaday frequently hosts new, fresh takes on ham radio hacking as well. I think ham radio is back to its roots. With the resources of the modern maker movement, it's possible to learn about radio and hack something together that puts you on the air with people as excited as you are.
- detaro 6y ago
  thanks for those links.
- th0ma5 6y ago
nvahalik 6y ago
I went through a radio phase a few years ago and got my extra. Then I had kids, then work got busy. We moved a few times. I still have a quite a bit of gear left, mostly 2M stuff but the fact is I don't really have anyone to talk to and the biggest reason I got into radio (public service/storm spotting/emergency prep) have not been very active here. We do radios for parades, but they haven't activated storm spotters here in nearly 2 years. If I had more people to talk to, I'd be on it more. But it's hard to get kids 3 kids 6 and under... to get interested in it.

wrkronmiller 6y ago

As someone who holds but doesn't use a Technician Class license, I completely agree. As someone commented below, sending encrypted data over HAM frequencies is not allowed (IANAL), which also rules out a lot of interesting projects and use-cases.

mikece 6y ago
There is a proviso that goes with that. If you're doing a metro-area mesh network (some of the WiFi overlap with the 2.4GHz amateur band!) you can use WEP or WPA as long as the password for joining the network is "publicly available." Putting the current password on the website for the club/group running the project is sufficient to demonstrate, for FCC purposes, that the communications are open.
- Retr0spectrum 6y ago
  What happens if I use SSL over the top of such a network? Is that allowed? If the answer is yes, it seems more like a loophole in the rules than anything.
  - hpoe 6y ago
    Probably not. These rules were put in place to prevent spies from using HAM to exfil data during the Cold War. Really I think it should be something that should be revisited but I don't know how the 3 letter agency's would like a method of communication that they can't access.
    - detaro 6y ago
      Preventing commercial use is still a major argument used.
      - wcfields 6y ago
        I see that raised a lot as a concern but I can’t imagine it has any legs nowadays. Previously, in the 1980’s, yes I could see a Taxi/Plumber/etc using amateur radio equipment as a cheaper workaround for their business, but now it’s so much cheaper (and better) to use cellular or, if you really needed business radios they aren’t crazy expensive as they once were.
        kube-system 6y ago
        There's a ton of people using BaoFeng radios without a license. Every once in a while, some ignorant middle manager at a larger company buys a bunch and the FCC cites them.
        noodlesUK 6y ago
        I’ve actually seen baofengs with little stubby antennas used by various government employees without licenses, for instance workers at the DEQ near me. I’m not a dick so I’m not gonna call the fcc on them, but it’d be funny to see that.
        bityard 6y ago
        The reason for the rules against commercial activity on the ham bands was originally to keep hams from competing with commercial services, not the other way around. However, as an ham radio license holder, I would still not want to see our amateur radio frequencies, which are purposefully set aside by the FCC for hobby and experimental use, used for any commercial purposes at all. Commercial radio has its own spectrum and rules, and the cost to use it is not insignificant. Many businesses in my area still use radio because it is more reliable and controllable than the services provided by mobile operators. A lot of these would absolutely jump at the chance to use the ham bands and ditch their expensive commercial equipment, regulation, and fees if it were legal to do so. For non-local communications, HFT companies have been looking at the HF bands for years to shave a few milliseconds off their micro-arbitrage transactions (compared to wired networks) and ham radio has the largest chunk of spectrum after the military.

iNate2000 6y ago

That’s exactly how I got into amateur radio. First a receiver and fascination with all the signals I could find. Then the discovery that for a couple hundred dollars I COULD TRANSMIT TOO???!!!!!! Except that my receiver was a “police scanner” and my transmitters were various “walkie talkies” (first CB, then 2m amateur repeaters.) What you are describing IS radio as a hobby. If SDR had existed back then, I would have totally tried it out. It’s just Moore’s law making insanely advanced technology accessible. I love living in the future!

Heliosmaster 6y ago

Any recommended resources to get started with SDR?

lozaning 6y ago
The sub $30 RTL-SDR and SDR# software, is more or less the defacto standard starting point.
iNate2000 6y ago
“RTL-SDR” is amazing! “RTL” is from a particular chipset that has great support for hackability.” There a few different apps that can decode signals from it. I even got a USB-OTG (“on-the-go”) adapter and used my RTL dongle with an app on an Android phone. And that was 5ish years ago.
th0ma5 6y ago
Get this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009U7WZCA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_jlssFbEVGX4RH https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009U7WZCA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_jl... Or this nicer one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011HVUEME/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ZlssFbC5YTAS6 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011HVUEME/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Zl... Sdr# for Windows. GQRX for the others. For a blog with help and project ideas check out http://www.rtlsdr.com/ http://www.rtlsdr.com/
throwaway3neu94 6y ago
See this post I wrote in an earlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23468796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23468796
wila 6y ago
You can even get started without buying anything, there's an SDR website where you can experiment with a remote SDR. It's in the Netherlands. Just browse to here: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/ http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/
flyinghamster 6y ago
I have a couple of NESDR Smart dongles from NooElec [1], that have worked very well for me. I run them on a Raspberry Pi 3 and pipe audio output to my desktop or laptop with PulseAudio. Aside from SDR# on Windows and gqrx on Linux, there's also GNU Radio [2] and a variety of lightweight applications that can run on, let's say, a Raspberry Pi Zero [3]. Oona Räisänen has a fascinating blog that touches on digital signal processing as well, applicable to SDRs as well. Me? No ham license, but that may come someday. [1] https://www.nooelec.com/store/ https://www.nooelec.com/store/ [2] https://www.gnuradio.org/ https://www.gnuradio.org/ [3] https://osmocom.org/projects/rtl-sdr/wiki/Rtl-sdr https://osmocom.org/projects/rtl-sdr/wiki/Rtl-sdr [4] https://www.windytan.com/ https://www.windytan.com/

facedeoderant 6y ago

Specifically you're talking about RTL-SDR, a hacked soundcard that can receive a lot of frequencies. The channels you can legally transmit back on for a few hudred dollars more are FRS/GMRS family/business radio channels. (Speaking about USA only here, since that's the only radio location I know about). tl;dr for the rest of my post: ham radio is the best type of radio for hackers. Undoubtedly you can have tons of fun with a $30 RTL-SDR and basic antenna, but there are lots of things you can do with ham radio once you grow tired of that, or if you find yourself being interested in how radio works generally, but more fundamentally, you can actually talk to people who are _actively hacking on the same types of things you are_ using projects you've both worked on, maybe together. Regarding FRS/GMRS walkie talkie frequencies: these are UHF (Ultra High Frequency) frequencies, which means a couple of things: range is limited to well under a mile in most conditions, and building a radio to work on FRS or GMRS would be _possible_, but would require a lot of specialized equipment and maybe an engineering degree. Additionally, power is extremely limited on these radios, so you might be able to transmit back, but you'd better be near the business's parking lot to do so legally. Again, as far as a hobby goes, try breaking in on the Chik Fil A drive-thru attendant's recitation of someone's waffle fry order to ask whether you're coming in clearly on your home-built radio. Ham radio has a community that's thriving and full of fun for new and/or young modern hackers. You just have to know where to look. For starters, consider Ham Radio Village at DEFCON (https://hamvillage.org https://hamvillage.org) or the online Young Amateur Radio Club (https://yarc.world/ https://yarc.world/) (an inclusive and active club centered around a Discord channel full of people interested in the latest tech in ham radio), or Ham Radio Workbench Podcast (https://twitter.com/HamWorkbench https://twitter.com/HamWorkbench) (a podcast focusing on the latest in ham radio with a focus on new technologies and the intersection with the maker sphere). Hackaday frequently hosts new, fresh takes on ham radio hacking as well. I think ham radio is back to its roots. With the resources of the modern maker movement, it's possible to learn about radio and hack something together that puts you on the air with people as excited as you are.

detaro 6y ago
thanks for those links.
th0ma5 6y ago

nvahalik 6y ago

I went through a radio phase a few years ago and got my extra. Then I had kids, then work got busy. We moved a few times. I still have a quite a bit of gear left, mostly 2M stuff but the fact is I don't really have anyone to talk to and the biggest reason I got into radio (public service/storm spotting/emergency prep) have not been very active here. We do radios for parades, but they haven't activated storm spotters here in nearly 2 years. If I had more people to talk to, I'd be on it more. But it's hard to get kids 3 kids 6 and under... to get interested in it.