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I think your employers set you up for failure. Nearly all educational institutions make math seem like something only weirdos could enjoy, for their later emplo

I think your employers set you up for failure. Nearly all educational institutions make math seem like something only weirdos could enjoy, for their later employment as tools of industry. I say that as someone who was once so motivated to learn math, I lied to a highschool precalculus teacher in order to take proof-oriented calculus at a university. (Though she thought she forebade me, I gained prerequisites in a summer-school, running as fast through the material as I was allowed, passing the maximum 3 tests per day — one test per chapter — once I hit my stride. This allowed me to take classes at a university with a highly regarded undergrad math program). Yet... the university class was boring. Producing "rigorous" epsilon-delta proofs (and whatever else we did) was a tedious exercise which improved my abilities in no significant way. Probably made me dumber. I took only one more math class after that. All of it was a waste of time. Didn't "teach me how to think better" or any of that paternalistic claptrap. I wish you did not blame your students for their "bad attitude." I sincerely don't mean to be rude, but maybe your attitude could also use some modification. In a better world, you might have been teaching an intro to enjoying one's inborn mathematical abilities, with a crack team of TAs from the psychology dept undoing everyone's damage from earlier schooling.

cynicalkane 16y ago
I can't figure out what your hatred of epsilon-delta proofs has to do with employers setting up a pre-calculus teacher "for failure" and the indoctrination of students as "tools of industry". I'm sorry that your introduction to real math left you sour, but I assure you that epsilon-delta proofs are not a conspiracy by the industrialist class to brainwash kids away from critical thinking--or whatever you are alleging.
- calibraxis 16y ago
  My "hatred of epsilon-delta proofs"? Boy, your little put-down is not only insulting, it's even absurd that I have feelings one way or another about simple mathematical techniques. Unless 'boredom' = 'hate' in your world. Sorry to even mention this and get your blood pressure up. (Didn't mean to scratch a sore spot by simply criticizing an educational system that I certainly paid my dues in.) And BTW, in addition to your other unsupported inferences (ironic given the subject matter), I wouldn't confuse not taking further math classes with stopping one's mathematical education. If you insist on reading things that don't exist in someone's words, how do your proofs turn out well? You must be constantly assuming things which aren't given, and even changing "equals" to "not equals" in a problem to turn it to one you have a textbook solution for. [Edit: Ahh... Not to sound at all stalker-y, but I looked at your public account info to understand your perspective better. I see that not only you studied at UChicago — which probably means Spivak's Calculus and learning epsilon-delta proofs might be a matter of pride with you — you work at a financial market. My comment does contain a criticism of the status quo, which you may have strong ideological feelings about and therefore respond with a bit less rationality than otherwise. And... maybe I did come across as calling a subset of people here 'tools'.]
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
hackinthebochs 16y ago
>Producing "rigorous" epsilon-delta proofs (and whatever else we did) was a tedious exercise which improved my abilities in no significant way And you want to blame that on the course itself? This is exactly the problem with education--kids feel like its the teachers responsibility to force them to get something out of it. It is your responsibility, no one else's. Furthermore, I took analysis in college and I gained a great deal from it. It made me a much more precise thinker, mathematically and otherwise. Your lack of growth from the course is no ones fault but your own. Edit: thinking about the issue a little bit more I realize that its not as clear cut as its "your fault". There is a big problem with how math is taught, especially at the younger grades. My issue with your blaming the course and the teacher for your lack of growth is that once you're at the college level you shouldn't need the teacher to do a song and dance to keep your attention. You're supposedly there for one reason only, to further your own education. Thus the responsibility is on you to get as much as you can out of every course. If the content of the course didn't match your expectations then the problem lies elsewhere, not in the material or how it was taught.
- calibraxis 16y ago
  Do you apply this logic to other aspects of your life? You purchase a product and blame yourself if you didn't receive the intense personal growth implied by its advertisements? Or do you consider all teaching methods equal in effectiveness? When I teach, my "customers" are my students. I wish to do well by them, not blame them when I failed to inspire. I attempt to learn from mistakes I've made and seen, and try do a better job. My being a passive consumer wouldn't help anyone.
  - hackinthebochs 16y ago
    >You purchase a product and blame yourself if you didn't receive the intense personal growth implied by its advertisements? I do blame myself if my expectations didn't match the actual product I received. It is my responsibility to make the best choices for myself. Of course when it comes to college courses, much of the blame for incorrect expectations lies with your advisors. I had the same issue. Another issue that I see all the time with people who consider themselves "good at math" is that they have no idea what real math is. They breeze through standard "applied" math courses (calculus and prereqs) and then hit a brick wall when they hit real math where you do proofs. This isn't a problem with the material or how its taught, its that people's expectations are way off. It just makes no sense to blame the teacher or the material here. >I wish to do well by them, not blame them when I failed to inspire. I commend you for this; we would all be better off if every teacher has this dedication. But, at some point the burden has to shift to the student to find their own inspiration. Once you get past a certain line, the time spent has to be dealing with difficult material, not making sure the students are properly inspired. The line varies depending on the subject. But when you're taking a college level advanced calculus class, you have crossed the line where motivation is your responsibility. I think what you learned taking the course is simply that proof-based mathematics isn't for you.
kylemaxwell 16y ago
You know, it's funny. I got a degree in math with a minor in CS. While I directly use the CS much more today than the math, I firmly believe my analysis courses -- delta-epsilon proofs included -- set me on the right course in properly examining matters and not settling for handwaved explanations. I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but then again the "math" that junior high and high schools usually teach isn't really math. Rather, it is a brief explanation of boring topics, taught in a boring way to emphasize rote memorization. I'd prefer to see teachers focus on the joy of exploring a concept so that you understand it actively versus passively, and (yes) rigorous logic as well. We'd have a better citizenry overall if people thought like mathematicians, whether or not they "use" the material.

cynicalkane 16y ago

I can't figure out what your hatred of epsilon-delta proofs has to do with employers setting up a pre-calculus teacher "for failure" and the indoctrination of students as "tools of industry". I'm sorry that your introduction to real math left you sour, but I assure you that epsilon-delta proofs are not a conspiracy by the industrialist class to brainwash kids away from critical thinking--or whatever you are alleging.

calibraxis 16y ago
My "hatred of epsilon-delta proofs"? Boy, your little put-down is not only insulting, it's even absurd that I have feelings one way or another about simple mathematical techniques. Unless 'boredom' = 'hate' in your world. Sorry to even mention this and get your blood pressure up. (Didn't mean to scratch a sore spot by simply criticizing an educational system that I certainly paid my dues in.) And BTW, in addition to your other unsupported inferences (ironic given the subject matter), I wouldn't confuse not taking further math classes with stopping one's mathematical education. If you insist on reading things that don't exist in someone's words, how do your proofs turn out well? You must be constantly assuming things which aren't given, and even changing "equals" to "not equals" in a problem to turn it to one you have a textbook solution for. [Edit: Ahh... Not to sound at all stalker-y, but I looked at your public account info to understand your perspective better. I see that not only you studied at UChicago — which probably means Spivak's Calculus and learning epsilon-delta proofs might be a matter of pride with you — you work at a financial market. My comment does contain a criticism of the status quo, which you may have strong ideological feelings about and therefore respond with a bit less rationality than otherwise. And... maybe I did come across as calling a subset of people here 'tools'.]
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

hackinthebochs 16y ago

>Producing "rigorous" epsilon-delta proofs (and whatever else we did) was a tedious exercise which improved my abilities in no significant way And you want to blame that on the course itself? This is exactly the problem with education--kids feel like its the teachers responsibility to force them to get something out of it. It is your responsibility, no one else's. Furthermore, I took analysis in college and I gained a great deal from it. It made me a much more precise thinker, mathematically and otherwise. Your lack of growth from the course is no ones fault but your own. Edit: thinking about the issue a little bit more I realize that its not as clear cut as its "your fault". There is a big problem with how math is taught, especially at the younger grades. My issue with your blaming the course and the teacher for your lack of growth is that once you're at the college level you shouldn't need the teacher to do a song and dance to keep your attention. You're supposedly there for one reason only, to further your own education. Thus the responsibility is on you to get as much as you can out of every course. If the content of the course didn't match your expectations then the problem lies elsewhere, not in the material or how it was taught.

calibraxis 16y ago
Do you apply this logic to other aspects of your life? You purchase a product and blame yourself if you didn't receive the intense personal growth implied by its advertisements? Or do you consider all teaching methods equal in effectiveness? When I teach, my "customers" are my students. I wish to do well by them, not blame them when I failed to inspire. I attempt to learn from mistakes I've made and seen, and try do a better job. My being a passive consumer wouldn't help anyone.
- hackinthebochs 16y ago
  >You purchase a product and blame yourself if you didn't receive the intense personal growth implied by its advertisements? I do blame myself if my expectations didn't match the actual product I received. It is my responsibility to make the best choices for myself. Of course when it comes to college courses, much of the blame for incorrect expectations lies with your advisors. I had the same issue. Another issue that I see all the time with people who consider themselves "good at math" is that they have no idea what real math is. They breeze through standard "applied" math courses (calculus and prereqs) and then hit a brick wall when they hit real math where you do proofs. This isn't a problem with the material or how its taught, its that people's expectations are way off. It just makes no sense to blame the teacher or the material here. >I wish to do well by them, not blame them when I failed to inspire. I commend you for this; we would all be better off if every teacher has this dedication. But, at some point the burden has to shift to the student to find their own inspiration. Once you get past a certain line, the time spent has to be dealing with difficult material, not making sure the students are properly inspired. The line varies depending on the subject. But when you're taking a college level advanced calculus class, you have crossed the line where motivation is your responsibility. I think what you learned taking the course is simply that proof-based mathematics isn't for you.

kylemaxwell 16y ago

You know, it's funny. I got a degree in math with a minor in CS. While I directly use the CS much more today than the math, I firmly believe my analysis courses -- delta-epsilon proofs included -- set me on the right course in properly examining matters and not settling for handwaved explanations. I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but then again the "math" that junior high and high schools usually teach isn't really math. Rather, it is a brief explanation of boring topics, taught in a boring way to emphasize rote memorization. I'd prefer to see teachers focus on the joy of exploring a concept so that you understand it actively versus passively, and (yes) rigorous logic as well. We'd have a better citizenry overall if people thought like mathematicians, whether or not they "use" the material.