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What's happening there is despicable. But to the best of my knowledge there's no extermination. There aren't hundreds of thousands being shot or gassed. It loo

What's happening there is despicable. But to the best of my knowledge there's no extermination. There aren't hundreds of thousands being shot or gassed. It looks more like a "cultural genocide", the kind we saw exercised against the Tibetans. I understand the emotions over this issue, and I don't think the holocaust is beyond comparison, but in this instance the comparison falls short.

brobdingnagians 6y ago
From what I know most Germans weren't aware of what was happening in the camps until after the war. They would have known there were people being taken away. Most genocidal governments don't publicize it as that. There is almost always a cover story. When there is a systematic removal of people from there homes, we mus assume the worst. Because a government with such widespread and systematic oppression, unrestrained, rarely restrains themselves.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  I doubt it. Even in the 40s, with no internet or cell phone cameras, even back then most governments knew about the holocaust as early as 41-42. There were evidence from concentration camp prisoners who escaped, and probably other kinds of evidence...I mean it's kinda hard to hide exterminating millions of people even if you're super efficient and organised. The stories we hear from China are despicable, but again - they suggest cultural genocide, not actual genocide.
  - thu2111 6y ago
    Can you cite that? My understanding is that the concentration camps weren't known to exist until the Allies stumbled onto them whilst advancing across Europe. In many camps the Germans had attempted to destroy them just hours before allied troops arrived, in an attempt to conceal what had been happening, but were interrupted by the high speed of the advance after D-Day. If everyone knew they wouldn't have put these camps far into the wilderness and forests, they wouldn't have tried to destroy them as they fled, and the allies wouldn't have been surprised by what they found. As for Germans knowing, they were subject to Nazi censorship. Some of them had their suspicions for sure. I saw a quote once from a woman who said of course they knew about the camps. When asked how she knew, her reply was: because that's exactly the sort of thing Hitler would have done. So she didn't really know, just suspected based on past behaviour, which is different.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holoc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba So definitely were known before liberation. As for the date, could be that I was wrong and it was 1943, and not 1941 (However, as soon as 1941-2 some 1.5 million Russian jews were shot to death, was there zero evidence of that?) It's also possible some governments had evidence but refused to believe such monstrosity could take place, or were just helpless / reluctant to do anything. Hell even these days some people refuse to accept what happened there. Obviously the Germans didn't know who knew what and tried to conceal. And obviously American / Russian soldiers who liberated the camps were surprised. Does that mean Churchill / Roosevelt were surprised? Also - was it really such a shocker? Jews were starving to death for years in Ghettoes prior to extermination - surely the local population had an idea the jews fate wasn't great.
      - thu2111 6y ago
        Hmm, the article about Vrba says he escaped in April 1944 but it took months for his report to be published. Meanwhile the Soviets encountered their first concentration camp around July 1944 time as well. So it sounds like his report came out more or less concurrently with the Soviets discovering Madjanek. The page does say that there were previous reports, but one was only in Polish. The other apparently did end up with the British and American governments, but that's a long way from most governments knowing. And even when the allies started discovering camps it was censored for a while, supposedly to avoid upsetting people with missing relatives. So I guess the information hardly travelled far, and not outside US/UK war offices. The Independent article seems to be conflating different things. Jews started fleeing the Nazis even before they fully assumed power. The comments about the Empire being full are presumably related to that. Wanting to indict Hitler for war crimes hardly required knowledge of concentration camps, so I'm not sure it provides so much evidence. I guess there's surprise, and then there's formally knowing. I referenced a German woman who said she "knew" but what she meant was she wasn't surprised when she learned. I guess that was how a lot of people reacted. Interesting links though, thanks. I learned some new things about WW2 today.
sct202 6y ago
Re-education camps with high death rates are very common in the CCP's brief history, so it seems like they're just rehashing what they've done before but this time on the Uighers. Prison labor camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor The worse version of the previos ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai
OscarCunningham 6y ago
The reports coming from inside the camps suggest that the death rate is very high, even without systematic executions.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  OK this may be new data I'm unaware of, source?
  - OscarCunningham 6y ago
    I'm only aware of anecdotes (of course; no one other than the CCP has data), but I was thinking in particular of this report. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uighur-muslim-china-mihrigul-tursun-torture-reeducation-camps-a8656396.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uighur-muslim-... > she was detained a third time and spent three months in a cramped prison cell with 60 other women > She said nine women from her cell died during her three months there. Of course that's only one sample. But if that is near the true death rate being applied to 1 million people (and soon more) then it's clear that this is genocide.
tupputuppu 6y ago
There are forced abortions and sterilizations which are counted as actual genocidw by UN (not just "cultural genocide")

brobdingnagians 6y ago

From what I know most Germans weren't aware of what was happening in the camps until after the war. They would have known there were people being taken away. Most genocidal governments don't publicize it as that. There is almost always a cover story. When there is a systematic removal of people from there homes, we mus assume the worst. Because a government with such widespread and systematic oppression, unrestrained, rarely restrains themselves.

joelbluminator 6y ago
I doubt it. Even in the 40s, with no internet or cell phone cameras, even back then most governments knew about the holocaust as early as 41-42. There were evidence from concentration camp prisoners who escaped, and probably other kinds of evidence...I mean it's kinda hard to hide exterminating millions of people even if you're super efficient and organised. The stories we hear from China are despicable, but again - they suggest cultural genocide, not actual genocide.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Can you cite that? My understanding is that the concentration camps weren't known to exist until the Allies stumbled onto them whilst advancing across Europe. In many camps the Germans had attempted to destroy them just hours before allied troops arrived, in an attempt to conceal what had been happening, but were interrupted by the high speed of the advance after D-Day. If everyone knew they wouldn't have put these camps far into the wilderness and forests, they wouldn't have tried to destroy them as they fled, and the allies wouldn't have been surprised by what they found. As for Germans knowing, they were subject to Nazi censorship. Some of them had their suspicions for sure. I saw a quote once from a woman who said of course they knew about the camps. When asked how she knew, her reply was: because that's exactly the sort of thing Hitler would have done. So she didn't really know, just suspected based on past behaviour, which is different.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holocaust-allied-forces-knew-concentration-camp-discovery-us-uk-soviets-secret-documents-a7688036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/holoc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba So definitely were known before liberation. As for the date, could be that I was wrong and it was 1943, and not 1941 (However, as soon as 1941-2 some 1.5 million Russian jews were shot to death, was there zero evidence of that?) It's also possible some governments had evidence but refused to believe such monstrosity could take place, or were just helpless / reluctant to do anything. Hell even these days some people refuse to accept what happened there. Obviously the Germans didn't know who knew what and tried to conceal. And obviously American / Russian soldiers who liberated the camps were surprised. Does that mean Churchill / Roosevelt were surprised? Also - was it really such a shocker? Jews were starving to death for years in Ghettoes prior to extermination - surely the local population had an idea the jews fate wasn't great.
    - thu2111 6y ago
      Hmm, the article about Vrba says he escaped in April 1944 but it took months for his report to be published. Meanwhile the Soviets encountered their first concentration camp around July 1944 time as well. So it sounds like his report came out more or less concurrently with the Soviets discovering Madjanek. The page does say that there were previous reports, but one was only in Polish. The other apparently did end up with the British and American governments, but that's a long way from most governments knowing. And even when the allies started discovering camps it was censored for a while, supposedly to avoid upsetting people with missing relatives. So I guess the information hardly travelled far, and not outside US/UK war offices. The Independent article seems to be conflating different things. Jews started fleeing the Nazis even before they fully assumed power. The comments about the Empire being full are presumably related to that. Wanting to indict Hitler for war crimes hardly required knowledge of concentration camps, so I'm not sure it provides so much evidence. I guess there's surprise, and then there's formally knowing. I referenced a German woman who said she "knew" but what she meant was she wasn't surprised when she learned. I guess that was how a lot of people reacted. Interesting links though, thanks. I learned some new things about WW2 today.

sct202 6y ago

Re-education camps with high death rates are very common in the CCP's brief history, so it seems like they're just rehashing what they've done before but this time on the Uighers. Prison labor camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor The worse version of the previos ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

OscarCunningham 6y ago

The reports coming from inside the camps suggest that the death rate is very high, even without systematic executions.

joelbluminator 6y ago
OK this may be new data I'm unaware of, source?
- OscarCunningham 6y ago
  I'm only aware of anecdotes (of course; no one other than the CCP has data), but I was thinking in particular of this report. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uighur-muslim-china-mihrigul-tursun-torture-reeducation-camps-a8656396.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uighur-muslim-... > she was detained a third time and spent three months in a cramped prison cell with 60 other women > She said nine women from her cell died during her three months there. Of course that's only one sample. But if that is near the true death rate being applied to 1 million people (and soon more) then it's clear that this is genocide.

tupputuppu 6y ago

There are forced abortions and sterilizations which are counted as actual genocidw by UN (not just "cultural genocide")