4 ms·

The problem is not Amazon, the problem is local rents. If we encourage mixed-use zoning, ie. 3-5 storey apartment blocks with the ground and first level for com

The problem is not Amazon, the problem is local rents. If we encourage mixed-use zoning, ie. 3-5 storey apartment blocks with the ground and first level for commercial and office use, we'll lower rents and reduce commutes.

chiefalchemist 6y ago
That's true. But I'd say the problem is us. We want the perks of local business, but too often they're an afterthought. Or we simply choose convenience. Saving a couple dollars on Amazon is no savings at all, if we eventually lose things we love (e.g., local bookstore). But try selling that to someone who is has a religiosly deep relationship with their Prime membership and is convinced they're too busy to fit the local ____ store in. The Hustle Culture mentality has real side effects. That said, as someone who did (i.e., owner) B&M retail for 10 years, local business need to be more available. Closing at 6.00 pm every day limits your audience. Being open later one or two evenings is a game changer. _If_ you are focused on your customers and their needs. Or, if your store is in a small town and you drive to your shop, don't take up prime parking spots. Yes, I've seen this done. "Business is slow." Gee, I wonder why. Don't get me wrong. I'm not an Amazon supporter. They are my vendor or last choice. That said, it's sad how often I get to that last choice so quickly (e.g., Powell's website is marginal at best).
- kiba 6y ago
  Local businesses would stay open if they don't have to pay absurd rents, or that vacant storefronts are actually available for rent.
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    So they close early to do less business? And that pays the rent?? So instead of being able to catch people coming home from work, the local biz ignores those people? So those people can go home and buy from Amazon?
    - michaelt 6y ago
      I think he means "stay open" as in "not go out of business" rather than "extend opening hours"
- fiblye 6y ago
  Convenience is definitely important, which is why mixed zoning is helpful. Instead of digging through amazon trying to find the one item that isn’t fake, hoping it’s what I actually want or need, needing to be home at the right time to sign for the package, and waiting for delivery, I could just make a 5 minute trip and hold the item in my hands before buying it. Local businesses still mostly thrive in cities with mixed zoning despite the presence of online businesses. Some things do get crushed (small electronics stores just can’t possibly match the variety and endlessly cycled out stock of the newest items online), but there’s space for some things.
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    There's definitely space. But it also requires creativity, and even the big chains fail. There's an Eastern Mountain Sports near me. It's an anchor in a small "boutique" mall. Not a single screen in the whole store. Now how are you going to capture the interest and imagination of the casual walk-through traffic? With racks of cookie-cutter clothing? B&M certainly isn't easy. What is? But having done B&M and ecomm, B&M has something online does not...presences. Mind you, that's not a plus ATM but pre-C19 very few were fully exploiting that unique asset. And yet they cry about inline? As if boring and generic will win over convenience??
me_me_me 6y ago
Singapore social housing works like that. Bottom floors are reserved for local small business and food court with small hawker stalls. It was fun exploring local food courts of bigger buildings.
ericbarrett 6y ago
Or would hedge funds and REITs just buy these spaces (or keep them to rent out after building them—a common practice for developers) and continue to charge high rent with more empty storefronts? I’ve thought for years that the growing number of commercial vacancies, even pre-Covid, would “sort itself out.” It certainly hasn’t yet.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  The thing you're seeing with covid is that places are empty for the same reason they became empty, and the owners are speculating that demand will rebound in the future (e.g. once there is a vaccine) so they have no reason to sell for less today. If you change the zoning at a sufficient scale, rents would be expected to decline permanently, so there would be nothing gained by holding out until tomorrow.
  - carlob 6y ago
    IIRC Vancouver taxes empty properties more than the ones in use to prevent this kind of speculation.
  - drdeadringer 6y ago
    > The thing you're seeing with covid is that places are empty for the same reason they became empty, and the owners are speculating that demand will rebound in the future (e.g. once there is a vaccine) so they have no reason to sell for less today. This partly explains why I saw -- with two temporary-by-design blips -- a particular downtown San Jose corner location empty for 10 years. Last I saw, they finally rented it out as an office, but that was just shy of Covid19. Apparently a decade is the minimum for "wait for better demand" or they had//have pockets deep enough to play a long game. I just don't understand how some people are happy with empty store-fronts. "I want the blightful eyesore, not the bustling tax money" doesn't make sense to me.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  Most of those 'empty' buildings are just ways for people to park money. If you rent it fine. If you dont that is fine too. The rent is not what they are looking for. They are basically looking for something that has maybe a slightly better yield than bonds. When you look at it as parking of assets as a hedge against inflation it makes more sense what is going on. But taxes you might say. They charge dumb rents on these places. So if you get a sucker willing to pay a way over priced rent for say 6 months or a year it may cover the taxes for 10-20 years. Meanwhile the cash value has usually at least matched along with inflation. Even if they do not cover with a sucker the rate of inflation may be higher than the taxes. Plus the possibility of buying into a 'hot market' and the value does actually increase (but that is speculation which is some of it). Why the 'dumb' rent why not have a reasonable one? Because they do not really want to rent. They do not want to deal with 'hey landlord the roof needs to be replaced again'. They want to deal with that when the time comes to liquidate it for whatever reason. Many people look at like the are running a property business. There are many of those types of companies out there (which is why they can play this game). But there are many people just looking to 'not be poor' and live off daddies money for the rest of their lives from their trust fund.
rorykoehler 6y ago
and foster communities
qppo 6y ago
If you take a trip to the East Bay you'll see mixed-use buildings with the storefronts converted to housing.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Many European countries have mixed-use zoning. That still hasn't stopped bookstores from hollowing out -- actual books getting fewer and fewer while most of the stock becomes hipster accoutrements like vinyl records and tea sets -- or closing entirely. The problem is that physical books are just not in-demand and high-margin enough to cover labour costs and rents in this day and age.
- DharmaPolice 6y ago
  The problem is there is just too much variety in books. I've bought a fair number of books from physical bookstores over the past couple of years but they're almost always books I found while browsing. If I go into a bookstore looking for a specific title - unless it's a high profile new release or something common (Jane Eyre or Harry Potter) - they're _really_ unlikely to have it in stock. Sure, they can order it for me but then why aren't I just ordering it online? This problem impacts smaller shops most of course but even the largest stores can't possibly hope to have more than a small % of every title in stock. That's just a natural consequence of how many books are out there.
Kednicma 6y ago
If I understand correctly, Powell's owns their downtown property, including the parking garage. The rent on their adjacent location may be high, and they did renovate and change those adjacent locations a few years ago, but that shouldn't endanger the main "city of books" block.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

That's true. But I'd say the problem is us. We want the perks of local business, but too often they're an afterthought. Or we simply choose convenience. Saving a couple dollars on Amazon is no savings at all, if we eventually lose things we love (e.g., local bookstore). But try selling that to someone who is has a religiosly deep relationship with their Prime membership and is convinced they're too busy to fit the local ____ store in. The Hustle Culture mentality has real side effects. That said, as someone who did (i.e., owner) B&M retail for 10 years, local business need to be more available. Closing at 6.00 pm every day limits your audience. Being open later one or two evenings is a game changer. _If_ you are focused on your customers and their needs. Or, if your store is in a small town and you drive to your shop, don't take up prime parking spots. Yes, I've seen this done. "Business is slow." Gee, I wonder why. Don't get me wrong. I'm not an Amazon supporter. They are my vendor or last choice. That said, it's sad how often I get to that last choice so quickly (e.g., Powell's website is marginal at best).

kiba 6y ago
Local businesses would stay open if they don't have to pay absurd rents, or that vacant storefronts are actually available for rent.
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  So they close early to do less business? And that pays the rent?? So instead of being able to catch people coming home from work, the local biz ignores those people? So those people can go home and buy from Amazon?
  - michaelt 6y ago
    I think he means "stay open" as in "not go out of business" rather than "extend opening hours"
fiblye 6y ago
Convenience is definitely important, which is why mixed zoning is helpful. Instead of digging through amazon trying to find the one item that isn’t fake, hoping it’s what I actually want or need, needing to be home at the right time to sign for the package, and waiting for delivery, I could just make a 5 minute trip and hold the item in my hands before buying it. Local businesses still mostly thrive in cities with mixed zoning despite the presence of online businesses. Some things do get crushed (small electronics stores just can’t possibly match the variety and endlessly cycled out stock of the newest items online), but there’s space for some things.
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  There's definitely space. But it also requires creativity, and even the big chains fail. There's an Eastern Mountain Sports near me. It's an anchor in a small "boutique" mall. Not a single screen in the whole store. Now how are you going to capture the interest and imagination of the casual walk-through traffic? With racks of cookie-cutter clothing? B&M certainly isn't easy. What is? But having done B&M and ecomm, B&M has something online does not...presences. Mind you, that's not a plus ATM but pre-C19 very few were fully exploiting that unique asset. And yet they cry about inline? As if boring and generic will win over convenience??

me_me_me 6y ago

Singapore social housing works like that. Bottom floors are reserved for local small business and food court with small hawker stalls. It was fun exploring local food courts of bigger buildings.

ericbarrett 6y ago

Or would hedge funds and REITs just buy these spaces (or keep them to rent out after building them—a common practice for developers) and continue to charge high rent with more empty storefronts? I’ve thought for years that the growing number of commercial vacancies, even pre-Covid, would “sort itself out.” It certainly hasn’t yet.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
The thing you're seeing with covid is that places are empty for the same reason they became empty, and the owners are speculating that demand will rebound in the future (e.g. once there is a vaccine) so they have no reason to sell for less today. If you change the zoning at a sufficient scale, rents would be expected to decline permanently, so there would be nothing gained by holding out until tomorrow.
- carlob 6y ago
  IIRC Vancouver taxes empty properties more than the ones in use to prevent this kind of speculation.
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  > The thing you're seeing with covid is that places are empty for the same reason they became empty, and the owners are speculating that demand will rebound in the future (e.g. once there is a vaccine) so they have no reason to sell for less today. This partly explains why I saw -- with two temporary-by-design blips -- a particular downtown San Jose corner location empty for 10 years. Last I saw, they finally rented it out as an office, but that was just shy of Covid19. Apparently a decade is the minimum for "wait for better demand" or they had//have pockets deep enough to play a long game. I just don't understand how some people are happy with empty store-fronts. "I want the blightful eyesore, not the bustling tax money" doesn't make sense to me.
sumtechguy 6y ago
Most of those 'empty' buildings are just ways for people to park money. If you rent it fine. If you dont that is fine too. The rent is not what they are looking for. They are basically looking for something that has maybe a slightly better yield than bonds. When you look at it as parking of assets as a hedge against inflation it makes more sense what is going on. But taxes you might say. They charge dumb rents on these places. So if you get a sucker willing to pay a way over priced rent for say 6 months or a year it may cover the taxes for 10-20 years. Meanwhile the cash value has usually at least matched along with inflation. Even if they do not cover with a sucker the rate of inflation may be higher than the taxes. Plus the possibility of buying into a 'hot market' and the value does actually increase (but that is speculation which is some of it). Why the 'dumb' rent why not have a reasonable one? Because they do not really want to rent. They do not want to deal with 'hey landlord the roof needs to be replaced again'. They want to deal with that when the time comes to liquidate it for whatever reason. Many people look at like the are running a property business. There are many of those types of companies out there (which is why they can play this game). But there are many people just looking to 'not be poor' and live off daddies money for the rest of their lives from their trust fund.

rorykoehler 6y ago

and foster communities

qppo 6y ago

If you take a trip to the East Bay you'll see mixed-use buildings with the storefronts converted to housing.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

Many European countries have mixed-use zoning. That still hasn't stopped bookstores from hollowing out -- actual books getting fewer and fewer while most of the stock becomes hipster accoutrements like vinyl records and tea sets -- or closing entirely. The problem is that physical books are just not in-demand and high-margin enough to cover labour costs and rents in this day and age.

DharmaPolice 6y ago
The problem is there is just too much variety in books. I've bought a fair number of books from physical bookstores over the past couple of years but they're almost always books I found while browsing. If I go into a bookstore looking for a specific title - unless it's a high profile new release or something common (Jane Eyre or Harry Potter) - they're _really_ unlikely to have it in stock. Sure, they can order it for me but then why aren't I just ordering it online? This problem impacts smaller shops most of course but even the largest stores can't possibly hope to have more than a small % of every title in stock. That's just a natural consequence of how many books are out there.

Kednicma 6y ago

If I understand correctly, Powell's owns their downtown property, including the parking garage. The rent on their adjacent location may be high, and they did renovate and change those adjacent locations a few years ago, but that shouldn't endanger the main "city of books" block.