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Some of the buildings are very clearly used as detention centers. They've been confirmed by journalists, for instance. Not all are proven to be camps and just l

Some of the buildings are very clearly used as detention centers. They've been confirmed by journalists, for instance. Not all are proven to be camps and just look like they could be. (I don't know why China would need so many guarded prison looking areas with thick concrete walls, but I'm sure someone could come up with a reason.) I was talking about the other two articles by Buzzfeed. They interviewed quite a few people who were arrested and then released from these centers. Also, there is no question (meaning China has admitted it) that China has a re-education and de-radicalization program for which they are detaining Uighurs (and others) against their will. It is part of their larger plans to sinicize Islam from what I understand. What are your thoughts on this?

free_rms 6y ago
I agree with your facts there, although "sinicize Islam" sounds awfully grand? In context with Western countries' reactions to militant islam, it's very different, different cultural norms, but it's hard to call it comparatively monstrous. What if it works? What we're doing in afghanistan clearly isn't working, despite the humanitarian cost..
- James_Henry 6y ago
  The phrase Sinicization of Islam is Xi Jinping's, or at least the CCP's. It does sound grand and oppressive, especially when you consider that it is about more than just a considerate plan to minimize the threat of violent sects of Islam and includes stopping Islamic finance, mosque-run schools, religious Arabic-language schools, and more much worse as we've heard reports of (bits of which are reported in the articles). Sure, these traditions may be vectors for some particular type of violent Islamic ideas to spread, but they are also important parts of many's peaceful faith. Of course, the CCP has never really tried that hard to pretend they don't see religion as a threat. I mean, it really is a threat to the CCP's ultimate power. And if one doesn't have cultural norms respecting a person's right to peacefully practice religion and traditions, then I guess one wouldn't consider forced re-education camps monstrous. But if one did, then I don't think it would matter if it "works". I won't try and justify American wars or reason about their effectiveness in preventing violence.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Religion is a part of daily life for many, many Chinese. It's different, not Abrahamic, more of a syncretic blend of taoist, buddhist and localized icons. Monks and nuns take their roles seriously. Xi's government, in contrast to the communist governments 60 years ago, leverages it in a standard social conservative way rather than being against it on communist grounds. It's all over their propaganda. Anti-communist talking points from the 1980s never accurately described China, and certainly not in 2020. Here's my question: you clearly know very little about the place, yet are super invested in it. How do you square that? Why not either spend time learning about this place, or stop caring?
    - panpanna 6y ago
      Oh they ironi.. > Xi's government, in contrast to the communist governments 60 years ago, leverages it in a standard social conservative way rather than being against it on communist grounds This is literally written on a thread about people jailed and tortured because of their religion. > Why not either spend time learning about this place, or stop caring? The Chinese government has made it impossible to communicate with the people in that region. How about they let reporters move freely and interview people? Also, "stop caring*?
      - free_rms 6y ago
        It's not ironic, it's standard. Cultural conservatives in the US also dump on islam.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      I understand that religion is a part of daily life for many, many Chinese. I do admit that I don't know that much about China except the little I have learned from reading and talking with people. I've been mostly asking about the things that these Buzzfeed articles articulate. I'd like to know more, hence my questions, reading about it, etc. I'm not that much more invested than the average interested person, and I've been somewhat interested in China for quite some time, but haven't had (or made, really) the opportunity to visit. I have a Christian Chinese friend with whom I've talked about the role of the Chinese government in curtailing the free-expression and practice of religion. The 80's are certainly not the 2020's, but as is obvious to even someone who "clearly knows very little about the place" the CCP still works against religions that it sees as threats to their power. I get that this can be framed as a difference in "cultural norms" and this is something that I'd like to understand more fully. Short of living in China, do you have any good advice, books or whatnot to read, or whatever that would be good to do/read in order to learn more?

free_rms 6y ago

I agree with your facts there, although "sinicize Islam" sounds awfully grand? In context with Western countries' reactions to militant islam, it's very different, different cultural norms, but it's hard to call it comparatively monstrous. What if it works? What we're doing in afghanistan clearly isn't working, despite the humanitarian cost..

James_Henry 6y ago
The phrase Sinicization of Islam is Xi Jinping's, or at least the CCP's. It does sound grand and oppressive, especially when you consider that it is about more than just a considerate plan to minimize the threat of violent sects of Islam and includes stopping Islamic finance, mosque-run schools, religious Arabic-language schools, and more much worse as we've heard reports of (bits of which are reported in the articles). Sure, these traditions may be vectors for some particular type of violent Islamic ideas to spread, but they are also important parts of many's peaceful faith. Of course, the CCP has never really tried that hard to pretend they don't see religion as a threat. I mean, it really is a threat to the CCP's ultimate power. And if one doesn't have cultural norms respecting a person's right to peacefully practice religion and traditions, then I guess one wouldn't consider forced re-education camps monstrous. But if one did, then I don't think it would matter if it "works". I won't try and justify American wars or reason about their effectiveness in preventing violence.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Religion is a part of daily life for many, many Chinese. It's different, not Abrahamic, more of a syncretic blend of taoist, buddhist and localized icons. Monks and nuns take their roles seriously. Xi's government, in contrast to the communist governments 60 years ago, leverages it in a standard social conservative way rather than being against it on communist grounds. It's all over their propaganda. Anti-communist talking points from the 1980s never accurately described China, and certainly not in 2020. Here's my question: you clearly know very little about the place, yet are super invested in it. How do you square that? Why not either spend time learning about this place, or stop caring?
  - panpanna 6y ago
    Oh they ironi.. > Xi's government, in contrast to the communist governments 60 years ago, leverages it in a standard social conservative way rather than being against it on communist grounds This is literally written on a thread about people jailed and tortured because of their religion. > Why not either spend time learning about this place, or stop caring? The Chinese government has made it impossible to communicate with the people in that region. How about they let reporters move freely and interview people? Also, "stop caring*?
    - free_rms 6y ago
      It's not ironic, it's standard. Cultural conservatives in the US also dump on islam.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I understand that religion is a part of daily life for many, many Chinese. I do admit that I don't know that much about China except the little I have learned from reading and talking with people. I've been mostly asking about the things that these Buzzfeed articles articulate. I'd like to know more, hence my questions, reading about it, etc. I'm not that much more invested than the average interested person, and I've been somewhat interested in China for quite some time, but haven't had (or made, really) the opportunity to visit. I have a Christian Chinese friend with whom I've talked about the role of the Chinese government in curtailing the free-expression and practice of religion. The 80's are certainly not the 2020's, but as is obvious to even someone who "clearly knows very little about the place" the CCP still works against religions that it sees as threats to their power. I get that this can be framed as a difference in "cultural norms" and this is something that I'd like to understand more fully. Short of living in China, do you have any good advice, books or whatnot to read, or whatever that would be good to do/read in order to learn more?