8 ms·

Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

37 points by meebob 6y ago

saagarjha 6y ago
I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language with thousand-year-old meter.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Might it help if someone put a beat under the flow?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Maybe?
- acqq 6y ago
  What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading the "modern" "retelling". Another anachronism I remember: in another otherwise easy to read translation of an antique text (as is, originally written around 2000 years ago) the translator decided to regularly use the word "sadistic" which is constructed from the name of a real person living less than 300 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade Otherwise, modernizing meter (moving to another, more suitable to the the language of the new version, or even doing away with it if the goal is just to retell the story in a more approachable way, with the acceptance that it would simply be too clumsy in the target language) I consider very acceptable.
  - autisticcurio 6y ago
    Dats sick bro!
  - ecdavis 6y ago
    A strange aspect of our written culture is the extent to which documents are imbued with a sense of permanence from which they cannot easily escape. Beowulf was told and retold for at least decades - more likely centuries - before someone decided to write it down. Now, retellings[0] of the story are called translations, judged by many for their accuracy and historicity. Sashimi's been around for a long time. "Gravlax" would've been less alliterative. [0] It's telling that you put that word in quotes. Stories are things to be told, aren't they?
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      As the cousin thread points out, possible translations are a bit like Helen vs #nofilter Penelope: they may be either very beautiful or very faithful, but unless one has been blessed by the gods, that or is exclusive. Hipsters who prefer early Beoƿulf will enjoy http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitellius_a_xv_f132r http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitel... Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894 https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf
  - goto11 6y ago
    Translations of ancient texts are anachronisms per definition. The English language did not exist at the time.
    - acqq 6y ago
      Ever watched some film about ancient Rome from around middle of 20th century? I am of course aware that the Romans didn't use shampoos and hairspray 2000 years ago, but that's the level of "incorrectness" that I'm used to accept in order to watch any such movie. Still, imagine that the protagonists in the same movie have Seiko watches -- that would be to me much more distracting. I'm of course aware that in both cases for somebody from that time much more would seem "wrong."
      - goto11 6y ago
        Yeah, it is funny which kinds of anachronisms we accept and which we don't. In movies it is common to have people in authentic-looking historical costumes using modern language and having modern values and thinking. In theater it is often the other way around - historical texts acted in modern or anachronistic costumes.
  - smhost 6y ago
    > Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning ironically, "meaning" as a thing that belongs to a technical dissection of single words/phrases is a fairly modern notion.
    - acqq 6y ago
      > is a fairly modern notion I believe it is ancient, the way I remember the texts, the false etymologies of words and names are present even in the Bible. People always loved the stories about how why something is named something, even when the story is false, if it's good, it will be repeated. We are all storytellers. Exactly because I know "the story of sashimi" that word is for me jarring in Beowulf. It's not only anachronistic for the setting where the story takes place, it is also from the wrong part of the world, implying today's global trade of culinary fashion to that time and place: "skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea and made sashimi of some sea monsters."
      - goto11 6y ago
        Do you also consider "monsters" anachronistic?
        acqq 6y ago
        > Do you also consider "monsters" anachronistic? No, but I'll enjoy reading your argument why you are asking that.
        goto11 6y ago
        Monster is from Latin and only entered English after the Norman conquest. Anachronistic and from the wrong part of the world!
        acqq 6y ago
        > from the wrong part of the world Can that be argued? It's not that the "contact" and influence didn't exist, it's just that these specific people wouldn't use that language at that moment of time. The Romans were already on English ground long before Beowulf was written so using Latin words there is still much more acceptable to me -- it doesn't imply some access or historical impossibility that didn't exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar%27s_invasions_of_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar%27s_invasions_of... The same can't be said about sashimi. Again, like in the example of the movies (in other messages), I'm simply not expecting absolute purity, I just find Seiko watches too distracting there.
082349872349872 6y ago
Shots from the updated trailer for the Iliad: Paris - fanning golden apple slices off his palm Bitch is mine, yo! Achilles - Hos before bros. Patroclus hypes Athena - Not much slumming with the mortals where r u :eyes::owl: Hector - slomo in drifting chariot Odysseus - Same thing we do every night, Ajax. Try to sack Troy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k
- morelisp 6y ago
  Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey
  - shakna 6y ago
    > "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations. “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully, the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly, almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of white paper might blush if you rubbed it with a flower. And it is a perfect example of creative translation." That's... Did the translator completely forget that was meant to be a euphemism? Dawn's rosey fingers is quite a nice imagery... But Dawn was conflated with Eos. And well, it's in the name.
    - moonchild 6y ago
      I expect that the translator, being an expert user of multiple languages[1], was very aware of all the surface-level meanings of the language (and many others besides), and made many complex and well-thought-through compromises, as is always necessary when translating (not to mention regular writing). 1. To which I can personally attest, as I own emily wilson's odyssey—it is excellent.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
peterwwillis 6y ago
Yeah, starting every line with "Bro" was such a masterful move. Because bros are totally going to buy and read this thing. Because it says "Bro" a lot. Why does literary fawning always come off as desperation? Like an english major that knows they wasted time and money and in spite of it want you to care really deeply about an Oxford comma?
- morelisp 6y ago
  So how would you translate "hwæt"?
  - epicureanideal 6y ago
    Discussion here: https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-beowulf-wrong-or-did-seamus-heaney-get-it-right/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-... Interesting, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9TNfd9BCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9TNfd9BCE, hwaet sounds like "WAT!"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
numlocked 6y ago
I’m no scholar, but have a distinct memory of reading the Heaney translation of Beowulf perhaps 20 years ago (it was new at the time). I don’t recall any of the language per se, but have the distinct memory of thinking “this is extremely badass”. It seems completely reasonable that a more vernacular translation would be in some meaningful way more accurate (if not precise). This article brought back some of the adrenaline, and I expect that when I read this version, it will be exactly as I remember it.
- DC-3 6y ago
  I'm also a huge fan of Heaney's Beowulf. While Headley chooses to vernacularise the language in the extreme, Heaney took a more sensitive approach, preserving kennings and searching for Ulster dialect cognates to Old English words to use in their stead, and always being careful to shun the aloof Latinate for the earthy Germanic. The consequence of his success is that the text seems to have sprung forth from the bloodied earth, the capricious sea, and the smoke-clogged longhouses of the tale. So while I am always happy to see new editions of Beowulf, I can't help but feel that Headley's will feel a little trivial by way of its own unselfconcious anachronism. A wergeld seems an absurd concept when cast in the language of the iPhone, but when depicted in language that is sympathetic to its context it feels deeply natural - of the earth, even - a rightful price to pay as atonement for the shedding of blood, in an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today.
tptacek 6y ago
This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language. If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the impression that she's read all basically all the translations (apparently Tolkien makes it sound just like Lord of the Rings), so it's interesting to see where she's taking it.
- autisticcurio 6y ago
  I sometimes wonder if some of the references to the mythical beasts like fire breathing dragons are simply, some now extinct species of animal with embellishments like fire breathing. Lets face it, oral tradition came with a certain degree of embellishment and we know dinosaurs used to exist, but what's the chances of finding the remains of an extinct animal if we tried to look for it? Perhaps the Dodo would be an exception as, iirc, they last lived on an island somewhere killed by sailors for food, but hopefully you get my point. I doubt many skeletal remains would be found with Anglo-Saxon remains because none have been found so far, but do archaeologists looking for Anglo-Saxon remains ignore animal remains during the dig process? Its not something I'm familiar with.
  - goto11 6y ago
    I think you are messing up the timescales. Beowulf is about a thousand years old, while dinosaurs lived hundreds of millions of years ago.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    My understanding is that modern archaeology is extremely meticulous about examining pretty much every aspect of materials found during excavations. Here are some resources from Historic England on the subject: https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/animal-bones-and-archaeology/ https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/ani...
  - aptwebapps 6y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
>I'm the strongest and the boldest, and the bravest and the best. Yes: I mean — I may have bathed in the blood of beasts, netted five foul ogres at once, smashed my way into a troll den and come out swinging, gone skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea and made sashimi of some sea monsters. Anyone who fs with the Geats? Bro, they have to f with me. ----- Absolutely amazing. Captures the ethos of the hero so well. Sometimes, just like we thought the ancient statues were just stately unpainted stone, not realizing that they originally were brightly painted, we give these old stories a kind of formality and stuffiness, when in reality they were stories told by drunk warriors. This excerpt seems to capture that original essence. Looking forward to the book being released.
- arethuza 6y ago
  I suspect these were stories meant to be told to drunk warriors.
cousin_it 6y ago
A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf: http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html One particular prose translation that I like: http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Soldiers talk in "high" language? You obviously don't watch the soldiers I watch.
- voidhorse 6y ago
  Interesting point, but recall these narratives were spoken by bards and inscribed by scholars and monks, not warriors. For the original authors, the tales of glory are the fantasy of victories they did not witness or commit but likely had to envision—just as modern rap is not the embodiment of power and wealth, but the fantasy and projection of power and wealth, the manifestation not of accomplishment, but of desire. Narrativity and fiction have more kinship with what one doesn’t have than what one does—the actual ancient warrior’s “narrative” were his captors, heads on pikes, or the enemies he let live to tell the tale. In some respects the poets are responsible for sublimating the brutal, material symbology of war into something cultural, something detached from the event itself.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  (a) Anglo-saxon poetry was beat-oriented and heavy on alliteration, wordplay, and external references. Why would rap[1] not be a suitable[2] choice? (b) "People who actually fight in wars ... have always spoken in a more dignified[3] way." Pray tell, in which country's military have you served? [1] it's done more than Milton could: popularised poetry in the hood. [2] A cousin thread mentions "... an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today," which reminds me that the gangsta subgenre is slightly fonder of popping caps than filing briefs. (Compare OG Sinatra's "My Way" for commercially successful overclass braggadocio. Or, more recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 ) [3] Those who prefer their argot middle class might try Nice Wicket Average's "Straight outta Surrey": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4
_ZeD_ 6y ago
Was I the only one reading the title and thinking about the Beowulf cluster[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster
- opless 6y ago
  Came here for the cluster. Was disappointed.
- drbw 6y ago
  No, but now I'm thinking about the early days of Slashdot, when "imagine a beowulf cluster of those" was a common in-joke. Along with the obligatory dozen claiming to be "frist".
  - aptwebapps 6y ago
    I actually learned to code on a Beowulf cluster. The first programs I wrote to completion were on an LP mud that ran on a cluster in the creator's basement. Not because it was necessary for a mud with never more then ten users at once, but just because.

37 points by meebob 6y ago

saagarjha 6y ago

I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language with thousand-year-old meter.

082349872349872 6y ago
Might it help if someone put a beat under the flow?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Maybe?
acqq 6y ago
What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading the "modern" "retelling". Another anachronism I remember: in another otherwise easy to read translation of an antique text (as is, originally written around 2000 years ago) the translator decided to regularly use the word "sadistic" which is constructed from the name of a real person living less than 300 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade Otherwise, modernizing meter (moving to another, more suitable to the the language of the new version, or even doing away with it if the goal is just to retell the story in a more approachable way, with the acceptance that it would simply be too clumsy in the target language) I consider very acceptable.
- autisticcurio 6y ago
  Dats sick bro!
- ecdavis 6y ago
  A strange aspect of our written culture is the extent to which documents are imbued with a sense of permanence from which they cannot easily escape. Beowulf was told and retold for at least decades - more likely centuries - before someone decided to write it down. Now, retellings[0] of the story are called translations, judged by many for their accuracy and historicity. Sashimi's been around for a long time. "Gravlax" would've been less alliterative. [0] It's telling that you put that word in quotes. Stories are things to be told, aren't they?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    As the cousin thread points out, possible translations are a bit like Helen vs #nofilter Penelope: they may be either very beautiful or very faithful, but unless one has been blessed by the gods, that or is exclusive. Hipsters who prefer early Beoƿulf will enjoy http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitellius_a_xv_f132r http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitel... Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894 https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf
- goto11 6y ago
  Translations of ancient texts are anachronisms per definition. The English language did not exist at the time.
  - acqq 6y ago
    Ever watched some film about ancient Rome from around middle of 20th century? I am of course aware that the Romans didn't use shampoos and hairspray 2000 years ago, but that's the level of "incorrectness" that I'm used to accept in order to watch any such movie. Still, imagine that the protagonists in the same movie have Seiko watches -- that would be to me much more distracting. I'm of course aware that in both cases for somebody from that time much more would seem "wrong."
    - goto11 6y ago
      Yeah, it is funny which kinds of anachronisms we accept and which we don't. In movies it is common to have people in authentic-looking historical costumes using modern language and having modern values and thinking. In theater it is often the other way around - historical texts acted in modern or anachronistic costumes.
- smhost 6y ago
  > Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning ironically, "meaning" as a thing that belongs to a technical dissection of single words/phrases is a fairly modern notion.
  - acqq 6y ago
    > is a fairly modern notion I believe it is ancient, the way I remember the texts, the false etymologies of words and names are present even in the Bible. People always loved the stories about how why something is named something, even when the story is false, if it's good, it will be repeated. We are all storytellers. Exactly because I know "the story of sashimi" that word is for me jarring in Beowulf. It's not only anachronistic for the setting where the story takes place, it is also from the wrong part of the world, implying today's global trade of culinary fashion to that time and place: "skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea and made sashimi of some sea monsters."
    - goto11 6y ago
      Do you also consider "monsters" anachronistic?
      - acqq 6y ago
        > Do you also consider "monsters" anachronistic? No, but I'll enjoy reading your argument why you are asking that.
        goto11 6y ago
        Monster is from Latin and only entered English after the Norman conquest. Anachronistic and from the wrong part of the world!
        acqq 6y ago
        > from the wrong part of the world Can that be argued? It's not that the "contact" and influence didn't exist, it's just that these specific people wouldn't use that language at that moment of time. The Romans were already on English ground long before Beowulf was written so using Latin words there is still much more acceptable to me -- it doesn't imply some access or historical impossibility that didn't exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar%27s_invasions_of_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar%27s_invasions_of... The same can't be said about sashimi. Again, like in the example of the movies (in other messages), I'm simply not expecting absolute purity, I just find Seiko watches too distracting there.

082349872349872 6y ago

Shots from the updated trailer for the Iliad: Paris - fanning golden apple slices off his palm Bitch is mine, yo! Achilles - Hos before bros. Patroclus hypes Athena - Not much slumming with the mortals where r u :eyes::owl: Hector - slomo in drifting chariot Odysseus - Same thing we do every night, Ajax. Try to sack Troy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k

morelisp 6y ago
Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey
- shakna 6y ago
  > "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations. “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully, the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly, almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of white paper might blush if you rubbed it with a flower. And it is a perfect example of creative translation." That's... Did the translator completely forget that was meant to be a euphemism? Dawn's rosey fingers is quite a nice imagery... But Dawn was conflated with Eos. And well, it's in the name.
  - moonchild 6y ago
    I expect that the translator, being an expert user of multiple languages[1], was very aware of all the surface-level meanings of the language (and many others besides), and made many complex and well-thought-through compromises, as is always necessary when translating (not to mention regular writing). 1. To which I can personally attest, as I own emily wilson's odyssey—it is excellent.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

peterwwillis 6y ago

Yeah, starting every line with "Bro" was such a masterful move. Because bros are totally going to buy and read this thing. Because it says "Bro" a lot. Why does literary fawning always come off as desperation? Like an english major that knows they wasted time and money and in spite of it want you to care really deeply about an Oxford comma?

morelisp 6y ago
So how would you translate "hwæt"?
- epicureanideal 6y ago
  Discussion here: https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-beowulf-wrong-or-did-seamus-heaney-get-it-right/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-... Interesting, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9TNfd9BCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9TNfd9BCE, hwaet sounds like "WAT!"
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

numlocked 6y ago

I’m no scholar, but have a distinct memory of reading the Heaney translation of Beowulf perhaps 20 years ago (it was new at the time). I don’t recall any of the language per se, but have the distinct memory of thinking “this is extremely badass”. It seems completely reasonable that a more vernacular translation would be in some meaningful way more accurate (if not precise). This article brought back some of the adrenaline, and I expect that when I read this version, it will be exactly as I remember it.

DC-3 6y ago
I'm also a huge fan of Heaney's Beowulf. While Headley chooses to vernacularise the language in the extreme, Heaney took a more sensitive approach, preserving kennings and searching for Ulster dialect cognates to Old English words to use in their stead, and always being careful to shun the aloof Latinate for the earthy Germanic. The consequence of his success is that the text seems to have sprung forth from the bloodied earth, the capricious sea, and the smoke-clogged longhouses of the tale. So while I am always happy to see new editions of Beowulf, I can't help but feel that Headley's will feel a little trivial by way of its own unselfconcious anachronism. A wergeld seems an absurd concept when cast in the language of the iPhone, but when depicted in language that is sympathetic to its context it feels deeply natural - of the earth, even - a rightful price to pay as atonement for the shedding of blood, in an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today.

tptacek 6y ago

This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language. If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the impression that she's read all basically all the translations (apparently Tolkien makes it sound just like Lord of the Rings), so it's interesting to see where she's taking it.

autisticcurio 6y ago
I sometimes wonder if some of the references to the mythical beasts like fire breathing dragons are simply, some now extinct species of animal with embellishments like fire breathing. Lets face it, oral tradition came with a certain degree of embellishment and we know dinosaurs used to exist, but what's the chances of finding the remains of an extinct animal if we tried to look for it? Perhaps the Dodo would be an exception as, iirc, they last lived on an island somewhere killed by sailors for food, but hopefully you get my point. I doubt many skeletal remains would be found with Anglo-Saxon remains because none have been found so far, but do archaeologists looking for Anglo-Saxon remains ignore animal remains during the dig process? Its not something I'm familiar with.
- goto11 6y ago
  I think you are messing up the timescales. Beowulf is about a thousand years old, while dinosaurs lived hundreds of millions of years ago.
- arethuza 6y ago
  My understanding is that modern archaeology is extremely meticulous about examining pretty much every aspect of materials found during excavations. Here are some resources from Historic England on the subject: https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/animal-bones-and-archaeology/ https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/ani...
- aptwebapps 6y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

>I'm the strongest and the boldest, and the bravest and the best. Yes: I mean — I may have bathed in the blood of beasts, netted five foul ogres at once, smashed my way into a troll den and come out swinging, gone skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea and made sashimi of some sea monsters. Anyone who fs with the Geats? Bro, they have to f with me. ----- Absolutely amazing. Captures the ethos of the hero so well. Sometimes, just like we thought the ancient statues were just stately unpainted stone, not realizing that they originally were brightly painted, we give these old stories a kind of formality and stuffiness, when in reality they were stories told by drunk warriors. This excerpt seems to capture that original essence. Looking forward to the book being released.

arethuza 6y ago
I suspect these were stories meant to be told to drunk warriors.

cousin_it 6y ago

A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf: http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html One particular prose translation that I like: http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.

StavrosK 6y ago
Soldiers talk in "high" language? You obviously don't watch the soldiers I watch.
voidhorse 6y ago
Interesting point, but recall these narratives were spoken by bards and inscribed by scholars and monks, not warriors. For the original authors, the tales of glory are the fantasy of victories they did not witness or commit but likely had to envision—just as modern rap is not the embodiment of power and wealth, but the fantasy and projection of power and wealth, the manifestation not of accomplishment, but of desire. Narrativity and fiction have more kinship with what one doesn’t have than what one does—the actual ancient warrior’s “narrative” were his captors, heads on pikes, or the enemies he let live to tell the tale. In some respects the poets are responsible for sublimating the brutal, material symbology of war into something cultural, something detached from the event itself.
082349872349872 6y ago
(a) Anglo-saxon poetry was beat-oriented and heavy on alliteration, wordplay, and external references. Why would rap[1] not be a suitable[2] choice? (b) "People who actually fight in wars ... have always spoken in a more dignified[3] way." Pray tell, in which country's military have you served? [1] it's done more than Milton could: popularised poetry in the hood. [2] A cousin thread mentions "... an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today," which reminds me that the gangsta subgenre is slightly fonder of popping caps than filing briefs. (Compare OG Sinatra's "My Way" for commercially successful overclass braggadocio. Or, more recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 ) [3] Those who prefer their argot middle class might try Nice Wicket Average's "Straight outta Surrey": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4

_ZeD_ 6y ago

Was I the only one reading the title and thinking about the Beowulf cluster[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster

opless 6y ago
Came here for the cluster. Was disappointed.
drbw 6y ago
No, but now I'm thinking about the early days of Slashdot, when "imagine a beowulf cluster of those" was a common in-joke. Along with the obligatory dozen claiming to be "frist".
- aptwebapps 6y ago
  I actually learned to code on a Beowulf cluster. The first programs I wrote to completion were on an LP mud that ran on a cluster in the creator's basement. Not because it was necessary for a mud with never more then ten users at once, but just because.