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Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye w

Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.

fqye 6y ago
> Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
- grugagag 6y ago
  You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!
  - fqye 6y ago
    There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.
    - ghostwriter 6y ago
      what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?
      - grugagag 6y ago
        China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation
      - fqye 6y ago
        images or videos of families confined in a camp, children, women and old men / women from reliable source. When we talk about concentration camp, it is always about large number of families.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        Who/what would be a "reliable source" for you? Also, a concentration camp is not defined in terms of families/women/children confined in it, there were many concentration camps in history that captured individual members of families, who were not ideologically aligned with a totalitarian regime of that time and place, the whole soviet Gulag system was built on secrecy and minimal exposure to public, when individual members of your family might not get back home from a grocery store one day and just dissappear into unknown destination.
        fqye 6y ago
        I don't agree with you. That kind of camps should be called prisons or something else. Now when people talk about concentration camps, they mostly refer to the camps of Nazi's or the US's for Japanese Americans during WWII. I mean that is the most insidious side of the concentration camp accusation against China. Reliable source means established entities like media or research institution that verify what they get. I would name New Yorker as an example, which manages to maintain very high standard of professionalism.
        grugagag 6y ago
        Well, concentration camps are what they are, places where people are brought en mass and kept there forcefully. What exactly they look like and how they compare to the Nazi camps or the soviet gulag is not relevant, plus we are more than half a century later and in a different part of the world so comparing the details isn’t relevant at this point. Ive just seen some sad footage from China with an Uygur woman who was released after 2 years and her 3-4 years old daughter who she was separated from - was holding her arms around her telling her not to cry. The woman was saying they were rushed by guards and zapped with electricity in their heads to make them move faster. Tell me what kind of danger did that poor woman pose to China and why did she have to be taken away from her daughter? Are you heartless or what? I guess you are but I don’t wish that upon you or your family, just for you to try to put yourself in her shoes. You’re on the good side of the chinese history just because you weren’t born an uygur but that’s just chance. Please do try to show some compassion for your fellow human beings. Ive also saw some footage of non-Uygur, regular Chinese, albeit poor who were agressively being beaten by police. You Chinese are coward for letting them beat you like that. Maybe you’re well connected and untouchable is all I can think, otherwise you seem somewhat informed, you have access to the outside world and can see for yourself what is going in in your own country. Be human!
    - grugagag 6y ago
      Ok, theres some progress to accept that. Sure not everything is accurate when things get reported and I don’t doubt sometimes mistakes are made. Successive takes usually filter out the chaff. If China allowed reporters and had nothing to hide we wouldn’t be discussing right now. This report may be questionable from your point of view but it’s all we’ve got for now.. And this report doesn’t look like the WMD in Iraq provided by CIA based on the secret intelligence shtick. This is an open investigation and is still ongoing. As far as I can tell it is credible but we both have the right to our opinions
      - fqye 6y ago
        You missed my point. I am not questioning the images. > If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. No, it was driven by politically motivated lies that the governments knew were fabrications. It wasn't intelligence driving policy, but preconceived policy driving intelligence to support the arguments that were already decided. And this was fairly evident and evidence for it fairly widely reported, though also widely of ignored, during the drive to war. The Uighurs camps situation doesn't appear the same, but of course it's abstractly possible that the lies are just better covered and laundered through external organizations. But I don't think that's the Occam's Razor answer.

fqye 6y ago

> Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.

grugagag 6y ago
You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!
- fqye 6y ago
  There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.
  - ghostwriter 6y ago
    what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?
    - grugagag 6y ago
      China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation
    - fqye 6y ago
      images or videos of families confined in a camp, children, women and old men / women from reliable source. When we talk about concentration camp, it is always about large number of families.
      - ghostwriter 6y ago
        Who/what would be a "reliable source" for you? Also, a concentration camp is not defined in terms of families/women/children confined in it, there were many concentration camps in history that captured individual members of families, who were not ideologically aligned with a totalitarian regime of that time and place, the whole soviet Gulag system was built on secrecy and minimal exposure to public, when individual members of your family might not get back home from a grocery store one day and just dissappear into unknown destination.
        fqye 6y ago
        I don't agree with you. That kind of camps should be called prisons or something else. Now when people talk about concentration camps, they mostly refer to the camps of Nazi's or the US's for Japanese Americans during WWII. I mean that is the most insidious side of the concentration camp accusation against China. Reliable source means established entities like media or research institution that verify what they get. I would name New Yorker as an example, which manages to maintain very high standard of professionalism.
        grugagag 6y ago
        Well, concentration camps are what they are, places where people are brought en mass and kept there forcefully. What exactly they look like and how they compare to the Nazi camps or the soviet gulag is not relevant, plus we are more than half a century later and in a different part of the world so comparing the details isn’t relevant at this point. Ive just seen some sad footage from China with an Uygur woman who was released after 2 years and her 3-4 years old daughter who she was separated from - was holding her arms around her telling her not to cry. The woman was saying they were rushed by guards and zapped with electricity in their heads to make them move faster. Tell me what kind of danger did that poor woman pose to China and why did she have to be taken away from her daughter? Are you heartless or what? I guess you are but I don’t wish that upon you or your family, just for you to try to put yourself in her shoes. You’re on the good side of the chinese history just because you weren’t born an uygur but that’s just chance. Please do try to show some compassion for your fellow human beings. Ive also saw some footage of non-Uygur, regular Chinese, albeit poor who were agressively being beaten by police. You Chinese are coward for letting them beat you like that. Maybe you’re well connected and untouchable is all I can think, otherwise you seem somewhat informed, you have access to the outside world and can see for yourself what is going in in your own country. Be human!
  - grugagag 6y ago
    Ok, theres some progress to accept that. Sure not everything is accurate when things get reported and I don’t doubt sometimes mistakes are made. Successive takes usually filter out the chaff. If China allowed reporters and had nothing to hide we wouldn’t be discussing right now. This report may be questionable from your point of view but it’s all we’ve got for now.. And this report doesn’t look like the WMD in Iraq provided by CIA based on the secret intelligence shtick. This is an open investigation and is still ongoing. As far as I can tell it is credible but we both have the right to our opinions
    - fqye 6y ago
      You missed my point. I am not questioning the images. > If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. No, it was driven by politically motivated lies that the governments knew were fabrications. It wasn't intelligence driving policy, but preconceived policy driving intelligence to support the arguments that were already decided. And this was fairly evident and evidence for it fairly widely reported, though also widely of ignored, during the drive to war. The Uighurs camps situation doesn't appear the same, but of course it's abstractly possible that the lies are just better covered and laundered through external organizations. But I don't think that's the Occam's Razor answer.