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Apple's 30% only applies to digital content that further enriches the core app experience. That's my understanding. For instance, Apple does not take 30% of all
by hbosch 6y ago
Apple's 30% only applies to digital content that further enriches the core app experience. That's my understanding. For instance, Apple does not take 30% of all Amazon purchases through the Amazon iOS app either. Nor do they skim 30% from any retail app.
However, if your app happens to be a game (a "free" game, for instance) and your in-app purchases enhance that game in some way (e.g. unlocking features) then Apple gets a cut of that.
- bredren 6y agoRegardless of its categorization, it also seems like accepting revenue from Facebook ads would be the antithesis of Apple’s stance towards customer privacy.
- liability 6y agoIf they take a cut of purchases but not ads, doesn't that incentivize the ad supported model vs the paid model? And wouldn't creating such a system of incentives also run against Apple's stance towards customer privacy?
- tsimionescu 6y agoWhy? This is about buying ads, not ad revenue. For example, you can pay Facebook so that a picture you took shows up in other people's feeds on Instagram as 'Sponsored'. Question is, is Apple getting their 30% cut from the money you pay Facebook for that?
- freedomben 6y agoIt sounds like Apple is trying to close a loop hole around paying the 30% for app purchase. For example, you could make the app "free" but then unlock with in-app purchase, which would skirt the 30% fee. I think Apple is absolutely abusive and I would love for that to be stopped, but this doesn't sound malicious to me on the surface.
- hbosch 6y ago> For example, you could make the app "free" but then unlock with in-app purchase, which would skirt the 30% fee. Lots of apps do this, and they are not exempt from the 30% fee. Basically paywalling an existing part of your app is exactly what the 30% from IAP is for.
- spiderfarmer 6y agoGoes to show how arbitrary their rules are. And how untruthful their reasoning.
- AlexandrB 6y agoI'm confused what you mean by this. It seems pretty consistent to me. Edit: This made more sense when I realized the headline was about purchasing ad placement within the app, not viewing ads.
- nprz 6y agoThe Bandcamp app does not allow you to purchase music through the app to avoid the apple tax. OPs comment suggests that Amazon does not pay the apple tax when purchasing digital goods (music, videos, books, etc.) through their app. That seems inconsistent.
- ArchOversight 6y agoYou are completely unable to purchase digital goods through the Amazon app. No buying a kindle book, you'll be forced to open a web browser and do it that way. No purchasing movies, or music. Physical goods that are delivered to your home, all good. Not an issue.
- baddox 6y agoWhy do you think this is arbitrary? It makes a lot of sense and is pretty obvious when you look across all apps. This tweet is trying to point out a "gotcha" when there is absolutely nothing inconsistent, unreasonable, or shocking here. Apple doesn't take a cut when you order things on the Amazon app, or when you buy stocks on Robinhood, or when you rent a car on Turo. Apple takes a cut from in-app purchases, but that is a term that Apple defines precisely. It obviously doesn't mean "any purchase in any app."
- ccktlmazeltov 6y agowhy can't you build your own browser? Why can't you build your own online game shop?
- mathgorges 6y agoThis is the answer, I think. Though one could argue that more likes/conversions/CTAs improve's a business's app experience
- mathgorges 6y agoThis initially had a wink emoji at the end. I didn't realize HN throws out emojis, and it's absence changes the tone a bit ;-)
- HugoDaniel 6y agoIsnt the while shtick of the ad industry that personalized ads enhance your experience ? Inst Facebook timeline carefully curated based on that ?
- jraph 6y agoThis seems to contradict the fact that Netflix needs to pay the 30% tax for subscriptions done from the iOS app, though it seems like core functionality to me.
- drivingmenuts 6y agoMy guess is that Netflix is grandfathered in under long contract. It’s also a predictable source of income year after year, which is far more valuable than an unpredictable app by a smaller developer. It also definitely enhances the value of iOS more than most apps out there. Ultimately, large corporations can get side deals because they wield more power and influence than smaller companies.
- gumby 6y agoNetflix stopped offering subscription through the app (last year IIRC) for this reason, though they grandfathered existing iOS-mediated subscriptions for the obvious customer retention reasons. Also I don’t think you can subscribe to amazon prime via the iOS app — you certainly can’t buy video via the prime video app!
- ArchOversight 6y agoYou CAN buy video using the Amazon Prime Video app, it is in the category where Apple gets a 15% cut of the sale.
- wjnc 6y agoThe funny thing is that switching to non-Apple payment is hard (I get that that's Apple) and the support staff of Netflix was really helpful in making me switch.
- whakim 6y agoIt's actually really annoying, implementation-wise. Apple subscriptions are read-only for third parties, which creates some annoying hurdles where you have to warp your data model to accommodate the fact that someone could have two subscriptions to the same thing at the same time, which normally you wouldn't want to allow them to do.
- EGreg 6y agoThat’s because Amazon purchases are of real world products that don’t have zero marginal cost to copy. Maybe a case can be made for adspace having a real cost too?
- manfredo 6y agoIs there a reason why app developers don't just make customers buy DLC and loot boxes from outside the app store? E.g. if a customer wants to buy a skin in Fortnite they just can't do it on the app store they need to go through the web UI.
- shoulderfake 6y agoI think apple forces them to do the transaction through apple
- a_t48 6y agoI believe Apple's rules prohibit even mentioning external digital stores to bypass IAP (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
- gsich 6y agocorrect.
- hnick 6y agoSuppose a large group of "helpful" players started advertising/spamming via ingame chat the fact that you can buy VBucks on the official website for cheaper than in game. Totally unaffiliated and not paid for by Epic, of course. Is Epic obligated to censor them because of Apple's rules?
- bentcorner 6y agoI wonder if the apple tax would apply to buying a physical code that is mailed to you.
- gnicholas 6y agoThe dividing line is digital versus non-digital content. That's why you can order physical goods from Amazon's app, but not digital content. It's not about enriching the core app experience; if it were, you could buy a video from the Amazon app, which doesn't enrich the core app experience of that app (you watch videos in the Prime Video app, which is separate).
- mrtksn 6y ago> The dividing line is digital versus non-digital content Content that’s consumed on the device to be more precise. You can sell domains and hosting etc. using alternative payment methods. For example I use namecheap’s App to buy domains and I would use CC to do so.
- tsimionescu 6y agoSo are Instagram ads not 'digital content'?
- josephduffy 6y agoIt's a blurry line since the content isn't consumed in the app, but you can buy digital codes for games (such as Nintendo Switch games) in the Amazon app.
- sukilot 6y ago
- jzig 6y agoWhat about Kindle e-books?
- CubsFan1060 6y agoYou can't buy Kindle books through the Kindle app.
- jacobr1 6y agoAmazon doesn't sell them via their app to avoid the app-store-tax. Instead they'll redirect you to their website in safari. You can borrow KindleUnlimited titles, provided you've purchased that subscription outside of the app. Same thing with Audible, you can use existing credits within the app, but can't purchase more.
- jeroenhd 6y agoOne example that complicates things is the Floatplane [1] application, where each channel costs a certain fee per month. The app doesn't do anything other than play videos from the subscribed videos. Because they wouldn't increase their price 30% to reflect the additional Apple fees, every single feature that even mentions the presence of a website that you can pay for a subscription at (including help pages!) have so far had to be removed [2]. The "core app experience" of Floatplane is "you get to watch videos in high quality" and "you get to chat during live streams". Their app is an amalgamation of Patreon and the Youtube video player, both of which are on the App Store already. I don't know why buying video access would be so different from making ads show up. Both are purely digital services. There's probably some vague notion of "consumption" that determines if the fee is mandatory or not, but the rules are as vague as they are arbitrary when you get down to that level. It's clear that the actual rule is "we can make a deal if you're big enough". Apps like Uber have gotten warnings for pulling stunts that smaller developers would get their dev account banned for. Adding 30% on top of Facebook would kill the feature on iOS and subsequently kill iPhone presence among marketeers. [1]: https://www.floatplane.com/ https://www.floatplane.com/ [2]: https://youtu.be/Rs4hTm6B9QQ?t=368 https://youtu.be/Rs4hTm6B9QQ?t=368
- gruez 6y agoIsn't there an exception for "reader" and streaming aps?
- jeroenhd 6y agoI don't think so? I believe Netflix removed the option to sign up from iOS, so I don't think there's an exemption from the fees there.
- tsimionescu 6y agoThere is an exemption for another rule - only streaming apps are allowed to offer no functionality until you pay outside the app. If you install the Netflix app, you'll be hit with a login screen and no way to proceed until you go online, create an account, and pay. However, if you were to make a game that had the same UI, it would be refused access to the store - apps must have some level of functionality without requiring a purchase outside the app, except if they are in the 'reader' category.
- leoplct 6y agoThis should apply for a ebook purchased through the app (Audible). Following this logic Amazon should pay Apple 30%?
- aero142 6y agoI believe the Kindle app does not allow purchase and don't explain how to purchase new books in the app. It only shows free or kindle unlimited books that you do not own.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- onhn 6y agoIn that case, hypothetically what about a separate app that only sells game currency, like vbucks?
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago> Apple's 30% only applies to digital content that further enriches the core app experience. Seems to me FB ads fit the definition. FB core product isn’t a consumer social network, it’s a targeted ad platform, and their actual customers are advertisers that serve ads on the platform. Clearly ad buying/managing enriches the core app experience for FB’s advertisers. Just more favoritism and unequal treatment between the tech giants.
- theodorton 6y agoNo, it doesn’t. We just built a merchant app for the App Store where merchants of our platform should be able to handle and process orders made on our website from customers. Apple refused to approve the app unless we added a storefront to our app and used in-app purchases. But that’s not something we consider a core feature of the app.
- giancarlostoro 6y agoSeems they are trying to add these restrictions to smaller new apps and not mess with already established markets. Apple is quite literally toxic to innovation by these practices.
- xenospn 6y agoThat doesn't sound right. My app redirects to my website store and Apple never had a problem with that, even after I specifically removed IAP.
- sushid 6y agoIf there's one thing that's constant, it's that Apple is somewhat arbitrary when it comes to "enforcing" their TOS on the small guys.
- RonanTheGrey 6y agoYeah we got away with this for 3 years too and in our most recent updates have been forced to add IAP. As another poster mentioned they've been cracking down tighter and tighter even on small apps.
- xenospn 6y agoDo you sell physical products?
- RonanTheGrey 6y agoOur product has a real-world component yes but the payment part had more to do with the online subscription (which gave you access to the real world component). Covid killed our product though so for us I'm relieved I don't have to deal with Apple's shit anymore to get the app deployed. Still have to deal with it for other clients though :/
- goodluckchuck 6y agoFor Facebook’s customers (advertisers), advertising is the core app experience.
- thehesiod 6y agowhat if you were to separate the two? Epic creates a token "store" which allows you to apply to various games. This would be like the amazon case =). Same thing could be said if you could buy said tokens in the amazon store
- coryfklein 6y agoTo answer this, think of why does Facebook allow users to purchase ads from within the app? Does it make for a better experience to be able to buy an add from your couch, or while traveling? Isn't the Facebook experienced for these users improved by offering for sale goods within the app itself? I think there is a very good case to be made that the in-app experience is improved by allowing these purchases in-app, and the in-app experience and value would be significantly reduced if Facebook did not allow marketers to buy ads using their iPhone or iPad.