6 ms·

I'm still baffled that some people, even here, think this is all made up propaganda from the West. Despite tons and tons of evidence. Kind of reminds me of how

I'm still baffled that some people, even here, think this is all made up propaganda from the West. Despite tons and tons of evidence. Kind of reminds me of how it must have been with people in denial about the early Nazi concentration camps, and Holodomor. I'm not saying this is as brutal as what the Nazis did (at least as far as we know,) just drawing parallels to the pure denialism or marking it up as pure exaggeration.

mkoubaa 6y ago
The Nazis ran out of food at some point. It doesn't take a powerful imagination to think what the CCP would do if it ran out of some essential resource.
- D8761D3C 6y ago
  the wheel turns around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
fqye 6y ago
Because history told us that public consensus and official conclusion could be lies. Remember the reason that the US invaded Iraq?
- warbaker 6y ago
  Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.
  - fqye 6y ago
    > Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
    - grugagag 6y ago
      You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!
      - fqye 6y ago
        There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?
        grugagag 6y ago
        China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation
        fqye 6y ago
        images or videos of families confined in a camp, children, women and old men / women from reliable source. When we talk about concentration camp, it is always about large number of families.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. No, it was driven by politically motivated lies that the governments knew were fabrications. It wasn't intelligence driving policy, but preconceived policy driving intelligence to support the arguments that were already decided. And this was fairly evident and evidence for it fairly widely reported, though also widely of ignored, during the drive to war. The Uighurs camps situation doesn't appear the same, but of course it's abstractly possible that the lies are just better covered and laundered through external organizations. But I don't think that's the Occam's Razor answer.
Miner49er 6y ago
I think people are skeptical, because a lot of the people talking about these camps clearly don't care about the people in them. They only care about making China look bad. Many politicians in the US are using this as an example of why China is bad, while simultaneously pushing for similar here with our prison system or with ICE. Plus, even if they aren't being hypocrital, it is in the United States' interest to make China look bad, even if that means making things up or exaggerating.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  There is definitely a distinction between immigration policy of people coming into your country vs rounding up your own citizens. So, we now just have to believe everything China says because the US isn't perfect? Germany and many European countries have camps for refugees from the Syrian war, but that's not even remotely the same as taking your own citizens into camps and harvesting their organs, hair, etc. Not even close. I am so tired of that comparison, it's lazy whataboutism without even thinking about the context or extent.
  - canadaduane 6y ago
    I think there's quite a leap from "people are being skeptical" to "we now just have to believe everything China says".

mkoubaa 6y ago

The Nazis ran out of food at some point. It doesn't take a powerful imagination to think what the CCP would do if it ran out of some essential resource.

D8761D3C 6y ago
the wheel turns around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

fqye 6y ago

Because history told us that public consensus and official conclusion could be lies. Remember the reason that the US invaded Iraq?

warbaker 6y ago
Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.
- fqye 6y ago
  > Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.
  - grugagag 6y ago
    You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!
    - fqye 6y ago
      There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.
      - ghostwriter 6y ago
        what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?
        grugagag 6y ago
        China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation
        fqye 6y ago
        images or videos of families confined in a camp, children, women and old men / women from reliable source. When we talk about concentration camp, it is always about large number of families.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. No, it was driven by politically motivated lies that the governments knew were fabrications. It wasn't intelligence driving policy, but preconceived policy driving intelligence to support the arguments that were already decided. And this was fairly evident and evidence for it fairly widely reported, though also widely of ignored, during the drive to war. The Uighurs camps situation doesn't appear the same, but of course it's abstractly possible that the lies are just better covered and laundered through external organizations. But I don't think that's the Occam's Razor answer.

Miner49er 6y ago

I think people are skeptical, because a lot of the people talking about these camps clearly don't care about the people in them. They only care about making China look bad. Many politicians in the US are using this as an example of why China is bad, while simultaneously pushing for similar here with our prison system or with ICE. Plus, even if they aren't being hypocrital, it is in the United States' interest to make China look bad, even if that means making things up or exaggerating.

partiallypro 6y ago
There is definitely a distinction between immigration policy of people coming into your country vs rounding up your own citizens. So, we now just have to believe everything China says because the US isn't perfect? Germany and many European countries have camps for refugees from the Syrian war, but that's not even remotely the same as taking your own citizens into camps and harvesting their organs, hair, etc. Not even close. I am so tired of that comparison, it's lazy whataboutism without even thinking about the context or extent.
- canadaduane 6y ago
  I think there's quite a leap from "people are being skeptical" to "we now just have to believe everything China says".