7 ms·

But no mention and video evidence of the pen input lag and precision, which is what's supposed to set this apart from other eink display solutions. The 1 has so

But no mention and video evidence of the pen input lag and precision, which is what's supposed to set this apart from other eink display solutions. The 1 has some lag, just enough to still be a nuisance: did the 2 fix that?

h3ctic 6y ago
Yes, apparently it only has a latency of 21ms
- ksd482 6y ago
  21ms sounds really low, which is good of course. But as humans, would we notice 21ms lag while writing even if we paid close attention?
  - jm_l 6y ago
    You would definitely notice a 21ms lag while writing. Ideally you want to get below 10ms, but for physical-object-like responsiveness 1ms is the standard. See this old video from Microsoft research which demonstrates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
    - zaksoup 6y ago
      I just watched the video and maybe I missed it but doesn't that mean that in order to have 1ms latency you'd have to have a screen refresh rate of 1000 frames per second? That seems like it would cause serious cost increases for displays, controllers, and graphics cards.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        If it helps, you just have to refresh the (very small number of) pixels under pressure, and only at such a high right for a brief moment while they are being pressed. I wonder if you could have a separate layer which physically (chemically) responded to the pressure to make it look like the screen was drawing your line, but which only lasted for about 50ms after the pressure is removed. This chemical layer would be visible for just enough time for the real eInk pixels to actually refresh underneath the "pressure mask".
        setr 6y ago
        You'd be stuck with essentially one "material" though -- eg color or brush or whatever -- but I could see its utility as a dedicated single-purpose device (like only intended for sketching/notes -- which I guess is mostly true of remarkable anyways)
        roughly 6y ago
        re: setr > You'd be stuck with essentially one "material" though -- eg color or brush or whatever -- but I could see its utility as a dedicated single-purpose device (like only intended for sketching/notes -- which I guess is mostly true of remarkable anyways) I'd be curious about human perception of color matching/etc at the <50ms level - I'd suspect if you had _something_ that then became the actual color/brush, our visual system would probably just backfill to say it'd always been that color/texture.
      - the_pwner224 6y ago
        The 10ms demo is almost as good and much easier to accomplish, requiring only 100 fps instead of 1000. Actually you would need more than 1k fps - suppose it takes 0.5 ms for the touch sensors and CPU processing and graphics updates; then half the time after a touch you would miss the frame and have to wait 1 ms for the next display update. To me 1ms doesn't seem worth it given the diminishing returns. Something like 5-10 would be way easier to do.
      - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        Most devices these days actually heavily extrapolate, continuing drawing the line where they think you're going to draw it even before they've actually sensed where you drawed it. The effect is rather easy to see on a Surface Pro, but it actually works pretty well.
      - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
        You can cheat, Samsung was just bragging about this earlier in August when they showed off the new Note and smart pen. They used AI to predict where the user was likely to move the pen next to cut the perceived latency even further, some really clever stuff.
  - infogulch 6y ago
    I think you have to get below 10ms for humans to be unable to notice. Drawing is a worst case scenario for exposing screen latency; it's hard to match reality's 0ms and a pen with a fine tip doesn't help hide any of it like a comparatively chunky finger does. That said, 40ms -> 21ms is a really big improvement which could make the experience go from awkward to quite usable.
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    The original Apple Pencil and first generation of iPad Pro boasted of a 20ms lag. That was considered impressive, but perceptible if you look at your writing carefully. I found it fine for note-taking, but lots of people would still notice the latency, especially those using creative tools where there is a strong feedback loop between what you see and what you draw. They are now claiming 9ms lag. I suspect this is imperceptible for the use case of note-taking and marking up PDF documents (e.g. highlighting, making notes in the margin). But then again, 20ms is going to be more than fine for that use case as well.
  - nomel 6y ago
    I can absolutely tell the difference between an early iPad Pro (20ms) and later (9ms), when using a pencil. With the lower, it feels more like paper, like color is coming out of the pencil.
  - TheRealPomax 6y ago
    "Close"? Anything over 3~4ms starts to be noticable, and anything over 10ms is "clearly" noticable for folks who expect the response of a pencil on paper.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  That's not an "only", that's still at least twice what it needs to be to cross the uncanny valley of input latency.
cjbconnor 6y ago
The display is marketed as twice as fast as the 1
soneca 6y ago
No evidence that I could see, but they do mention it, claiming that this version 2 is 2x more respondent ( ”Speed at which digital ink appears on reMarkable“ ) than version 1.
- beezle 6y ago
  the response time has gone from about 50ms to 20ms.
antongribok 6y ago
Looks like there is an Engadget review from earlier today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVhTtl2iPkg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVhTtl2iPkg
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  Immediate red flags: all the actual drawing/writing shots have the pen move unrealistically slowly. Real people write fast, and draw fast. And then we we DO see normal paced drawing, it's either sped up, or obscured with a tactical camera angle. What the hell is this video?
devindotcom 6y ago
I have the 2 right here and it's better than the first. There's still a perceptible lag (that is, it isn't imperceptible) but it's better than anything else out there including other eink devices (I also have a Boox here that I compared it to, and the Sony DPT before it).
- braythwayt 6y ago
  Just to confirm, when you say, "better than anything else out there," that includes the latest generation of iPad Pro with Apple Pencil 2, correct?
  - smusamashah 6y ago
    Is iPad Pro an e-ink device?
    - braythwayt 6y ago
      The iPad Pro is not an e-Ink device, however since the OP was speaking of it being better than anything else out there _including other eink devices_, I wanted to confirm that "anything else" refers to devices like the current generation of iPad Pro.
  - eddiecalzone 6y ago
    Of course not. That wouldn't be an apple-to-apple comparison.
    - ghshephard 6y ago
      In what way? I find the lag on the iPad to be annoying enough that I've never bothered with it. I've never found any of the E-Ink devices to come close enough to paper to make me consider giving up paper notebooks - Though it's been about 3 years since I last checked them out.
      - braythwayt 6y ago
uberduper 6y ago
I'd guess that this is a much better experience for left handers than right.
- beezle 6y ago
  I'm fairly certain the RM2 will have both left and righ handed modes changable in settings.
  - remarkableguy 6y ago
    It does, it shares the settings with rM 1
  - uberduper 6y ago
    I meant that as a lefty I'm used to my view of what I'm writing being obscured. I think a left hander is less likely to notice or be annoyed by the latency.
beezle 6y ago
I have RM1 and though I don't do a ton of sketching, I do annotate papers. Never felt there was lag in anything other than perhaps erasing, but I'm not a speed writer either.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
waterhouse 6y ago
A Youtuber made a Lego robot that moves a pen at a constant speed and took 480fps video of it. He says the 1 had a latency of 54ms and the 2 has its advertised 21ms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwbVwfWIKE&t=17m53s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwbVwfWIKE&t=17m53s About precision, I'm not really sure. There's a bunch of writing footage in this video, which might have what you're looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wudCMFWPQ&t=8m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wudCMFWPQ&t=8m10s
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24300982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24300982 for how that video is the poster child of "very intentionally making it impossible to actually determine real life lag".

h3ctic 6y ago

Yes, apparently it only has a latency of 21ms

ksd482 6y ago
21ms sounds really low, which is good of course. But as humans, would we notice 21ms lag while writing even if we paid close attention?
- jm_l 6y ago
  You would definitely notice a 21ms lag while writing. Ideally you want to get below 10ms, but for physical-object-like responsiveness 1ms is the standard. See this old video from Microsoft research which demonstrates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
  - zaksoup 6y ago
    I just watched the video and maybe I missed it but doesn't that mean that in order to have 1ms latency you'd have to have a screen refresh rate of 1000 frames per second? That seems like it would cause serious cost increases for displays, controllers, and graphics cards.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      If it helps, you just have to refresh the (very small number of) pixels under pressure, and only at such a high right for a brief moment while they are being pressed. I wonder if you could have a separate layer which physically (chemically) responded to the pressure to make it look like the screen was drawing your line, but which only lasted for about 50ms after the pressure is removed. This chemical layer would be visible for just enough time for the real eInk pixels to actually refresh underneath the "pressure mask".
      - setr 6y ago
        You'd be stuck with essentially one "material" though -- eg color or brush or whatever -- but I could see its utility as a dedicated single-purpose device (like only intended for sketching/notes -- which I guess is mostly true of remarkable anyways)
      - roughly 6y ago
        re: setr > You'd be stuck with essentially one "material" though -- eg color or brush or whatever -- but I could see its utility as a dedicated single-purpose device (like only intended for sketching/notes -- which I guess is mostly true of remarkable anyways) I'd be curious about human perception of color matching/etc at the <50ms level - I'd suspect if you had _something_ that then became the actual color/brush, our visual system would probably just backfill to say it'd always been that color/texture.
    - the_pwner224 6y ago
      The 10ms demo is almost as good and much easier to accomplish, requiring only 100 fps instead of 1000. Actually you would need more than 1k fps - suppose it takes 0.5 ms for the touch sensors and CPU processing and graphics updates; then half the time after a touch you would miss the frame and have to wait 1 ms for the next display update. To me 1ms doesn't seem worth it given the diminishing returns. Something like 5-10 would be way easier to do.
    - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
      Most devices these days actually heavily extrapolate, continuing drawing the line where they think you're going to draw it even before they've actually sensed where you drawed it. The effect is rather easy to see on a Surface Pro, but it actually works pretty well.
    - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
      You can cheat, Samsung was just bragging about this earlier in August when they showed off the new Note and smart pen. They used AI to predict where the user was likely to move the pen next to cut the perceived latency even further, some really clever stuff.
- infogulch 6y ago
  I think you have to get below 10ms for humans to be unable to notice. Drawing is a worst case scenario for exposing screen latency; it's hard to match reality's 0ms and a pen with a fine tip doesn't help hide any of it like a comparatively chunky finger does. That said, 40ms -> 21ms is a really big improvement which could make the experience go from awkward to quite usable.
- braythwayt 6y ago
  The original Apple Pencil and first generation of iPad Pro boasted of a 20ms lag. That was considered impressive, but perceptible if you look at your writing carefully. I found it fine for note-taking, but lots of people would still notice the latency, especially those using creative tools where there is a strong feedback loop between what you see and what you draw. They are now claiming 9ms lag. I suspect this is imperceptible for the use case of note-taking and marking up PDF documents (e.g. highlighting, making notes in the margin). But then again, 20ms is going to be more than fine for that use case as well.
- nomel 6y ago
  I can absolutely tell the difference between an early iPad Pro (20ms) and later (9ms), when using a pencil. With the lower, it feels more like paper, like color is coming out of the pencil.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  "Close"? Anything over 3~4ms starts to be noticable, and anything over 10ms is "clearly" noticable for folks who expect the response of a pencil on paper.
TheRealPomax 6y ago
That's not an "only", that's still at least twice what it needs to be to cross the uncanny valley of input latency.

cjbconnor 6y ago

The display is marketed as twice as fast as the 1

soneca 6y ago

No evidence that I could see, but they do mention it, claiming that this version 2 is 2x more respondent ( ”Speed at which digital ink appears on reMarkable“ ) than version 1.

beezle 6y ago
the response time has gone from about 50ms to 20ms.

antongribok 6y ago

Looks like there is an Engadget review from earlier today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVhTtl2iPkg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVhTtl2iPkg

TheRealPomax 6y ago
Immediate red flags: all the actual drawing/writing shots have the pen move unrealistically slowly. Real people write fast, and draw fast. And then we we DO see normal paced drawing, it's either sped up, or obscured with a tactical camera angle. What the hell is this video?

devindotcom 6y ago

I have the 2 right here and it's better than the first. There's still a perceptible lag (that is, it isn't imperceptible) but it's better than anything else out there including other eink devices (I also have a Boox here that I compared it to, and the Sony DPT before it).

braythwayt 6y ago
Just to confirm, when you say, "better than anything else out there," that includes the latest generation of iPad Pro with Apple Pencil 2, correct?
- smusamashah 6y ago
  Is iPad Pro an e-ink device?
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    The iPad Pro is not an e-Ink device, however since the OP was speaking of it being better than anything else out there _including other eink devices_, I wanted to confirm that "anything else" refers to devices like the current generation of iPad Pro.
- eddiecalzone 6y ago
  Of course not. That wouldn't be an apple-to-apple comparison.
  - ghshephard 6y ago
    In what way? I find the lag on the iPad to be annoying enough that I've never bothered with it. I've never found any of the E-Ink devices to come close enough to paper to make me consider giving up paper notebooks - Though it's been about 3 years since I last checked them out.
    - braythwayt 6y ago

uberduper 6y ago

I'd guess that this is a much better experience for left handers than right.

beezle 6y ago
I'm fairly certain the RM2 will have both left and righ handed modes changable in settings.
- remarkableguy 6y ago
  It does, it shares the settings with rM 1
- uberduper 6y ago
  I meant that as a lefty I'm used to my view of what I'm writing being obscured. I think a left hander is less likely to notice or be annoyed by the latency.

beezle 6y ago

I have RM1 and though I don't do a ton of sketching, I do annotate papers. Never felt there was lag in anything other than perhaps erasing, but I'm not a speed writer either.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

waterhouse 6y ago

A Youtuber made a Lego robot that moves a pen at a constant speed and took 480fps video of it. He says the 1 had a latency of 54ms and the 2 has its advertised 21ms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwbVwfWIKE&t=17m53s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwbVwfWIKE&t=17m53s About precision, I'm not really sure. There's a bunch of writing footage in this video, which might have what you're looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wudCMFWPQ&t=8m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wudCMFWPQ&t=8m10s

TheRealPomax 6y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24300982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24300982 for how that video is the poster child of "very intentionally making it impossible to actually determine real life lag".