7 ms·

I think the macOS monoculture is going to go away in the next few years because on one side macOS is becoming more and more developer hostile with each release

I think the macOS monoculture is going to go away in the next few years because on one side macOS is becoming more and more developer hostile with each release and on the other side WSL (and WSL2) is improving the Windows developer experience a lot. I use Windows as my daily driver OS now for both native/web/mobile/devops work and I expect to see more and more developers making that same switch in the coming years.

xur17 6y ago
For folks considering the switch, I highly recommend considering linux as well. I've used both macOS and ubuntu as a development environment, and bug wise they are on par, but linux really excels at having a true "native" development environment. Docker without a weird VM, true bash, etc.
- leonidasv 6y ago
  Just a minor nitpick, macOS has true bash. It just doesn't have the GNU coreutils, instead it uses the BSD-based equivalents. And yeah, they suck a lot[1], but there's a way to fix if you use Homebrew: https://stackoverflow.com/a/57973942/8280773 https://stackoverflow.com/a/57973942/8280773 [1] Performance-wise and also when you take into account that most shell scripts/tutorials on the internet are written with a GNU userland in mind.
  - Steltek 6y ago
    macOS has a 12+ year old bash. Also, even with Homebrew patching up Apple's neglect, coreutils behaves differently under a Darwin kernel than Linux. A repeat source of aggravation for myself is the behavior of 'ps'.
    - llimllib 6y ago
      that's not due to the kernel, that's because it's bsd ps instead of gnu ps. sed is the one that gives me the most irritation, there's basically no way to write useful cross-OS sed scripts.
  - svachalek 6y ago
    As I remember it, this is the whole reason OS X became the de facto standard for developers in the first place, consumer-grade windowing and device drivers coupled with a familiar development environment. zsh has replaced bash as the default shell, btw.
- hellofunk 6y ago
  To suggest that “bug wise“ it is the same between Mac and Linux is a bit of a stretch. I work in a team where the developers are mostly split between Mac and Ubuntu. Guess which ones often have problems joining zoom meetings or attaching their machines to a projector for a presentation? There are a lot of things that you generally don’t have to worry about much if you’re using a Mac. I’m not gonna say that one of these is better than the other, but to suggest they have equivalency wrt common scenarios is a bit strange. Also, Mac is a certified UNIX environment, it is native.
  - atharris 6y ago
    This is definitely the largest drawback of Linux in general - support for peripherals and common communication/presentation software is really lacking. If I had a dollar for every time I had to muck around to get my headphones to work on Ubuntu, I wouldn't be posting here.
    - shaan7 6y ago
      > support for peripherals and common communication/presentation software is really lacking Well if peripherals vendor and "common communication/presentation software" didn't test on Linux, whose drawback is it now? That being said, I have used the following without any trouble on Linux: Slack, Discord, Teamviewer, Zoom, BBB and BlueJeans. Vendors don't put enough investment into testing for Linux due to comparatively low usage numbers - but that doesn't mean that it is a "drawback" of the OS. As for hardware, as Vinnl explains above the way to go is buy certified hardware. Ubuntu and Red Hat folks certify a bunch of Dell and Lenovo laptops to work with Linux. I use Ubuntu on a Dell XPS 13 and I don't need to do ANY extra setup. Things just work (TM) - including my Sennheiser and Jabra headphones.
  - Vinnl 6y ago
    I think the corollary is "consider Ubuntu, but still don't skimp on hardware". Buy a proper laptop that ships with Ubuntu, buy a proper connector cable if you need one, etc.
    - 6y ago
- rriepe 6y ago
  I feel like GIMP and Inkscape have finally caught up to the Adobe offerings. It was my reason for not switching for so long. But over the past year I did and I just-- wow. GIMP in particular is just really good now.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
x87678r 6y ago
Linux on laptops is getting much better too. Is a great alternative now for developers.
- Filligree 6y ago
  So long as you don't need HiDPI, multi-gpu or good touch-pad support.
  - wazoox 6y ago
    My new Lenovo laptop touchpad works perfectly well (much better than my old XPS13). Running Pop_OS 20.04.
  - cdmckay 6y ago
    Or good battery life
  - xioxox 6y ago
    HiDPI is pretty good on a KDE desktop nowadays
  - NorwegianDude 6y ago
    High density hasn't been an issue for me lately on Ubuntu, I rarely use a touchpad, so I can't comment on that. GPU support is absolutely garbage on Mac OS in comparison, both from a compatability and performance perspective.
    - dubcanada 6y ago
      For you, but it's an issue. Anyone who has used any Linux knows HiDPI or mixed DPI monitors are a massive issue on Linux. Even when you get your xrandr configured perfectly fine, disconnecting is a hassle. And that's completely ignoring apps, QT, GTK, etc all handle DPI differently. So you need a different config with DPI setting on each. One of the best I've used is PopOS with the HiDPI daemon enabled. But even that has issues. Even Windows can't deal properly with having a 4k laptop screen and a 2k monitor attached. Have to deal with weird text scaling issues and other weird scaling issues. But MacOS can and does it beautifully.
qntmfred 6y ago
Agreed. I grew up in the 90s using Windows. Bought my first MBP in 2009 and within a few years was using Macs almost entirely. Started using a Windows machine as my primary earlier this year for a new job and now I rarely touch my MBP. Took a little time to get used to Windows again, but I'm quite content. Windows 10 is excellent, and so is the ThinkPad T480s I'm using.
madeofpalk 6y ago
As always, it's all about the tooling. For better or worse, more is moving to web/electron, but for teams using Sketch, good luck trying to open Sketch file on Windows. After getting a Windows gaming PC, I've been spending more and more of my time, developing and otherwise, on PC. I prefer it because it's where I have my large (low DPI :( ) monitor, but Windows is still full of so many papercuts in general usage (I miss being able to drag a file into a Open File dialog so much) that I still greatly prefer using macOS. Windows has some niceties to try and make the transition better - The Windows Terminal app is pheonomial, and Powershell tries to map rm to whatever the Powershell command is - rm -rf doesnt work as expected though. I honestly don't find myself using WSL all that much - I only use it when I can't figure out how to make ping go forever in Powershell.
- vvpan 6y ago
  Didn't Microsoft make an effort to bring Linux into Windows a few years back? Is that no longer a thing?
  - madeofpalk 6y ago
    That's WSL. It's still there, and it's super easy to use (new Terminal tab > Ubuntu), but I just find I don't have much of a need for it. I do web development with Node, which runs fine under windows. https://imgur.com/a/n19qb8M https://imgur.com/a/n19qb8M
no_wizard 6y ago
I think WSL2 is wonderful, I use it on my primary development machine. Docker doesn't have as many pain points as it used to, and I generally find that I can get around the OS without too much issue, and the new Windows Terminal App helps a ton (its no iTerm2, but its better than anything else I can find) I still miss macOS, so much, because - Mac Software I was accustomed to using (and it was lot) is no longer available to me (don't discount this problem when suggesting switching) - I had to customize Windows 10 a lot, (many hours of work) to emulate native features of macOS I personally can't live without (including remapping keys, which turns out not to be trivial on Windows) - I miss the general UI polish of macOS. Windows is...ugly in a lot of places. - I miss Finder, and I've tried so many file explorer alternatives and nothing comes close - Windows 10 can't seem to ever remember my screen layout for my applications. I had to resort to an application to do this for me. Drives me nuts - macOS has way better HiDPI support (I have 3 4K monitors) It ain't trivial, is what I'm saying. Don't get me started on Linux, I loved Pop OS conceptually, but the support for basic things, like natural scrolling, was completely lacking, and I had to resort to all kinds of hacks to get a desktop semi functional. Not to mention, a lot of Linux 'add on' packages are abandonware and would break constantly when updating to new versions, and for basic things, like dealing with scroll direction, I had to edit files in a terminal, which I just found annoying. It just wasn't a polished out of the box experience. Don't get me started with it not recognizing adapters properly and issues with GPUs. macOS is alot of things, but they take 'just works' more seriously than any other operating system I've ever used. Honestly, I find it incredibly odd that companies that have more manpower than Apple (you'd be shocked how little manpower they devote to some things) can't manage to pull off the polish of macOS UI
- KayL 6y ago
  WSL2 has no built-in background services. That's a huge issue for me. And I don't have 100% confidence in it. It has many little bugs on each builds. Why do you miss Finder? Search feature? Preview.app? Opposite to you, I never like it.
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    If you didn't buy into Finder and other built-in apps on macOS, it can be easier to see less value, that is true, but effectually I feel like that dismisses perfectly reasonable expectations a macOS user has about using a platform. Frankly, Apple hasn't given as much love to macOS over the last 5-6 years in particular as they do their other platforms (in some ways, justifiable, otherwise, its frustrating) however, even with their basically trickle of updates to the desktop platform in that time, no other desktop platform could even match them on baseline functionality and user experience. Even though I'm certain Microsoft has more people working on Windows 10 than Apple has working on macOS. Even Ubuntu with its open source contributors likely dwarfs Apple's resources on this, yet nobody comes close to matching the user experience to me. As for software, I miss Finder because I felt the interface was intuitive and I really liked the features Finder like tags, smart folders, and the way you could custom it with extensions and settings. I like the built in software, like Preview in particular. I have yet to have anyone show me an OS that comes close to matching macOS out of the box. Even conceding customizations, they're just so lacking in comparison, to someone who 'clicked' with macOS. Granted, not everyone likes macOS, and thats fine, but to come at it from a place that its so easy to migrate to another platform, ignores so many things about macOS that make it great to a macOS user. My job requires Windows 10, thats how I ended up on the platform. I learned to get around and replicate as much of the features as I could, but so many are just fundamentally missing and even if I wanted to pay for the functionality (and for so much of it I would), the software doesn't even exist.
robertoandred 6y ago
Nah, Windows is still Windows, no matter how much Linux they try to bolt on. Let me know when they've got proxy icons.

xur17 6y ago

For folks considering the switch, I highly recommend considering linux as well. I've used both macOS and ubuntu as a development environment, and bug wise they are on par, but linux really excels at having a true "native" development environment. Docker without a weird VM, true bash, etc.

leonidasv 6y ago
Just a minor nitpick, macOS has true bash. It just doesn't have the GNU coreutils, instead it uses the BSD-based equivalents. And yeah, they suck a lot[1], but there's a way to fix if you use Homebrew: https://stackoverflow.com/a/57973942/8280773 https://stackoverflow.com/a/57973942/8280773 [1] Performance-wise and also when you take into account that most shell scripts/tutorials on the internet are written with a GNU userland in mind.
- Steltek 6y ago
  macOS has a 12+ year old bash. Also, even with Homebrew patching up Apple's neglect, coreutils behaves differently under a Darwin kernel than Linux. A repeat source of aggravation for myself is the behavior of 'ps'.
  - llimllib 6y ago
    that's not due to the kernel, that's because it's bsd ps instead of gnu ps. sed is the one that gives me the most irritation, there's basically no way to write useful cross-OS sed scripts.
- svachalek 6y ago
  As I remember it, this is the whole reason OS X became the de facto standard for developers in the first place, consumer-grade windowing and device drivers coupled with a familiar development environment. zsh has replaced bash as the default shell, btw.
hellofunk 6y ago
To suggest that “bug wise“ it is the same between Mac and Linux is a bit of a stretch. I work in a team where the developers are mostly split between Mac and Ubuntu. Guess which ones often have problems joining zoom meetings or attaching their machines to a projector for a presentation? There are a lot of things that you generally don’t have to worry about much if you’re using a Mac. I’m not gonna say that one of these is better than the other, but to suggest they have equivalency wrt common scenarios is a bit strange. Also, Mac is a certified UNIX environment, it is native.
- atharris 6y ago
  This is definitely the largest drawback of Linux in general - support for peripherals and common communication/presentation software is really lacking. If I had a dollar for every time I had to muck around to get my headphones to work on Ubuntu, I wouldn't be posting here.
  - shaan7 6y ago
    > support for peripherals and common communication/presentation software is really lacking Well if peripherals vendor and "common communication/presentation software" didn't test on Linux, whose drawback is it now? That being said, I have used the following without any trouble on Linux: Slack, Discord, Teamviewer, Zoom, BBB and BlueJeans. Vendors don't put enough investment into testing for Linux due to comparatively low usage numbers - but that doesn't mean that it is a "drawback" of the OS. As for hardware, as Vinnl explains above the way to go is buy certified hardware. Ubuntu and Red Hat folks certify a bunch of Dell and Lenovo laptops to work with Linux. I use Ubuntu on a Dell XPS 13 and I don't need to do ANY extra setup. Things just work (TM) - including my Sennheiser and Jabra headphones.
- Vinnl 6y ago
  I think the corollary is "consider Ubuntu, but still don't skimp on hardware". Buy a proper laptop that ships with Ubuntu, buy a proper connector cable if you need one, etc.
  - 6y ago
rriepe 6y ago
I feel like GIMP and Inkscape have finally caught up to the Adobe offerings. It was my reason for not switching for so long. But over the past year I did and I just-- wow. GIMP in particular is just really good now.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

x87678r 6y ago

Linux on laptops is getting much better too. Is a great alternative now for developers.

Filligree 6y ago
So long as you don't need HiDPI, multi-gpu or good touch-pad support.
- wazoox 6y ago
  My new Lenovo laptop touchpad works perfectly well (much better than my old XPS13). Running Pop_OS 20.04.
- cdmckay 6y ago
  Or good battery life
- xioxox 6y ago
  HiDPI is pretty good on a KDE desktop nowadays
- NorwegianDude 6y ago
  High density hasn't been an issue for me lately on Ubuntu, I rarely use a touchpad, so I can't comment on that. GPU support is absolutely garbage on Mac OS in comparison, both from a compatability and performance perspective.
  - dubcanada 6y ago
    For you, but it's an issue. Anyone who has used any Linux knows HiDPI or mixed DPI monitors are a massive issue on Linux. Even when you get your xrandr configured perfectly fine, disconnecting is a hassle. And that's completely ignoring apps, QT, GTK, etc all handle DPI differently. So you need a different config with DPI setting on each. One of the best I've used is PopOS with the HiDPI daemon enabled. But even that has issues. Even Windows can't deal properly with having a 4k laptop screen and a 2k monitor attached. Have to deal with weird text scaling issues and other weird scaling issues. But MacOS can and does it beautifully.

qntmfred 6y ago

Agreed. I grew up in the 90s using Windows. Bought my first MBP in 2009 and within a few years was using Macs almost entirely. Started using a Windows machine as my primary earlier this year for a new job and now I rarely touch my MBP. Took a little time to get used to Windows again, but I'm quite content. Windows 10 is excellent, and so is the ThinkPad T480s I'm using.

madeofpalk 6y ago

As always, it's all about the tooling. For better or worse, more is moving to web/electron, but for teams using Sketch, good luck trying to open Sketch file on Windows. After getting a Windows gaming PC, I've been spending more and more of my time, developing and otherwise, on PC. I prefer it because it's where I have my large (low DPI :( ) monitor, but Windows is still full of so many papercuts in general usage (I miss being able to drag a file into a Open File dialog so much) that I still greatly prefer using macOS. Windows has some niceties to try and make the transition better - The Windows Terminal app is pheonomial, and Powershell tries to map rm to whatever the Powershell command is - rm -rf doesnt work as expected though. I honestly don't find myself using WSL all that much - I only use it when I can't figure out how to make ping go forever in Powershell.

vvpan 6y ago
Didn't Microsoft make an effort to bring Linux into Windows a few years back? Is that no longer a thing?
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  That's WSL. It's still there, and it's super easy to use (new Terminal tab > Ubuntu), but I just find I don't have much of a need for it. I do web development with Node, which runs fine under windows. https://imgur.com/a/n19qb8M https://imgur.com/a/n19qb8M

no_wizard 6y ago

I think WSL2 is wonderful, I use it on my primary development machine. Docker doesn't have as many pain points as it used to, and I generally find that I can get around the OS without too much issue, and the new Windows Terminal App helps a ton (its no iTerm2, but its better than anything else I can find) I still miss macOS, so much, because - Mac Software I was accustomed to using (and it was lot) is no longer available to me (don't discount this problem when suggesting switching) - I had to customize Windows 10 a lot, (many hours of work) to emulate native features of macOS I personally can't live without (including remapping keys, which turns out not to be trivial on Windows) - I miss the general UI polish of macOS. Windows is...ugly in a lot of places. - I miss Finder, and I've tried so many file explorer alternatives and nothing comes close - Windows 10 can't seem to ever remember my screen layout for my applications. I had to resort to an application to do this for me. Drives me nuts - macOS has way better HiDPI support (I have 3 4K monitors) It ain't trivial, is what I'm saying. Don't get me started on Linux, I loved Pop OS conceptually, but the support for basic things, like natural scrolling, was completely lacking, and I had to resort to all kinds of hacks to get a desktop semi functional. Not to mention, a lot of Linux 'add on' packages are abandonware and would break constantly when updating to new versions, and for basic things, like dealing with scroll direction, I had to edit files in a terminal, which I just found annoying. It just wasn't a polished out of the box experience. Don't get me started with it not recognizing adapters properly and issues with GPUs. macOS is alot of things, but they take 'just works' more seriously than any other operating system I've ever used. Honestly, I find it incredibly odd that companies that have more manpower than Apple (you'd be shocked how little manpower they devote to some things) can't manage to pull off the polish of macOS UI

KayL 6y ago
WSL2 has no built-in background services. That's a huge issue for me. And I don't have 100% confidence in it. It has many little bugs on each builds. Why do you miss Finder? Search feature? Preview.app? Opposite to you, I never like it.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  If you didn't buy into Finder and other built-in apps on macOS, it can be easier to see less value, that is true, but effectually I feel like that dismisses perfectly reasonable expectations a macOS user has about using a platform. Frankly, Apple hasn't given as much love to macOS over the last 5-6 years in particular as they do their other platforms (in some ways, justifiable, otherwise, its frustrating) however, even with their basically trickle of updates to the desktop platform in that time, no other desktop platform could even match them on baseline functionality and user experience. Even though I'm certain Microsoft has more people working on Windows 10 than Apple has working on macOS. Even Ubuntu with its open source contributors likely dwarfs Apple's resources on this, yet nobody comes close to matching the user experience to me. As for software, I miss Finder because I felt the interface was intuitive and I really liked the features Finder like tags, smart folders, and the way you could custom it with extensions and settings. I like the built in software, like Preview in particular. I have yet to have anyone show me an OS that comes close to matching macOS out of the box. Even conceding customizations, they're just so lacking in comparison, to someone who 'clicked' with macOS. Granted, not everyone likes macOS, and thats fine, but to come at it from a place that its so easy to migrate to another platform, ignores so many things about macOS that make it great to a macOS user. My job requires Windows 10, thats how I ended up on the platform. I learned to get around and replicate as much of the features as I could, but so many are just fundamentally missing and even if I wanted to pay for the functionality (and for so much of it I would), the software doesn't even exist.

robertoandred 6y ago

Nah, Windows is still Windows, no matter how much Linux they try to bolt on. Let me know when they've got proxy icons.