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I loathe the fact that scrollbars are now hidden. I'm constantly looking for it to either a) find out how big the page is b) scroll more precisely I don't eve

I loathe the fact that scrollbars are now hidden. I'm constantly looking for it to either a) find out how big the page is b) scroll more precisely I don't even understand why they would remove them? Who ever complained of a scroll bar?

untog 6y ago
> I don't even understand why they would remove them? Who ever complained of a scroll bar? IMO it's all part of this push to combine mobile and desktop UI. On mobile there is a legitimate case to be made for removing them because screen real estate is so precious. But desktop gets clobbered as an unwanted side effect.
- bb123 6y ago
  I actually think it has more to do with the increasing size and sophistication of the touchpad in Macs. There is no need for a scroll bar when you have a touchpad you can flick (likewise for magic mice).
  - spideymans 6y ago
    Yea on macOS, the scroll bar is less of a scroll bar, and more of a scroll indicator. There just isn’t any reason to click on the scroll bar if you have a trackpad. Notably, when you connect a traditional mouse, the scroll bar automatically becomes thicker (easier to click) and always visible, as mice users do have a reason to click/drag the scroll bar. Seems like Apple had this in mind
    - formerly_proven 6y ago
      > Yea on macOS, the scroll bar is less of a scroll bar, and more of a scroll indicator. There just isn’t any reason to click on the scroll bar if you have a trackpad. I've seen so many web pages whose "fold line" just aligned so neatly with the end of my viewport that without the scrollbar being visible I would've just closed the page, being disappointed that it's just a meaningless hero page with no content. Similarly, if stuff like selection boxes align just right, you simply can't see there are more options without a scrollbar. It just looks like you only have those options that are on the screen right now. It's just plain bad UX coming from Apple.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        I love pages that have CSS to make the first section precisely the size of the viewport…and then have some sort of arrow indicating that you should scroll down to see more content.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    I don't know, not everybody has a macbook or a magic mouse. Plus even old, small, unprecise PC touchpads were enough to scroll a website. To me, it looks more related to the recent fashion of "minimal" interfaces. Like material design and ultra-skinny fonts. Could also be related to the "infinite scroll" some sites have. A scroll bar doesn't make much sense for those.
    - bb123 6y ago
      Pretty much everyone on MacOS (the OS mentioned in the article) does.
  - pantalaimon 6y ago
    But the touchpad won't help you visualize where on the page you are.
    - 52-6F-62 6y ago
      I use the larger touchpad rather than a mouse when working at my desk, and I have to say that's been a non-issue—for me anyway. A slight touch/movement on the pad and I know exactly where I am (and the device really is just great...). That said, the issues outlined in this article are glaring, and I do notice them when I switch to PC/Linux and a mouse and back. It's definitely something easy to forget, though. The UX is designed to make most of the obviousness fade away and make the process an extension of your natural movements. Kind of like how a good band can take cues from each other without explicitly speaking or reading off of a sheet during a performance. But that doesn't help people who aren't adept professionals, or people operating under completely different circumstances.
      - soco 6y ago
        I've hat as programmer many times this kind of discussion, about many features. And the lesson I learned goes like this: if somebody has an issue with something, it means they have an issue with something. Telling them "I don't have the issue" does not make their issue go away. In this particular case maybe they really want to see where they are just by looking - like the commenters above just said. That's pretty natural for them, we must agree.
        52-6F-62 6y ago
        I'm not sure if you thought my comment was an argument or not—it wasn't. I was adding another experience to the pile.
  - scaryclam 6y ago
    On a long page, it's really annoying and for some users not possible to flick scroll a long way. On desktop at least I can hit home or end. Removal of the scrollbar is arguably more user hostile on mobile than it is on desktop :/
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    The touchpad is related to mobile too though; trying to close the gap between computer interface and mobile touch interfaces. I don't think we'd have a touchpad if we didn't have mobile touchscreens first. And recall how Apple switched the "scroll direction" on the touchpad so you move your fingers in the same manner as you would directly on a screen to produce a given scroll direction.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Laptops had touch pads even when mobile devices had styluses.
- Tagbert 6y ago
  The idea is to focus on the content and have the interface elements “fade away”. The problem is that you often need those interface elements to properly interact with the content.
bb123 6y ago
They can be partially or completely re-enabled in the settings on MacOS.
- maneesh 6y ago
  Where/how?
  - djxfade 6y ago
    System Preferences -> General -> Show scroll bars: Always
    - lnanek2 6y ago
      Did that just now and Chrome is still happily hiding them...
      - abraxas 6y ago
        restart Chrome
        driverdan 6y ago
        Delete Chrome, switch to Firefox.
  - ourcat 6y ago
    System Prefs. > General > Show scroll bars.
  - hunter2_ 6y ago
    Scroll (heh) to the very bottom of the article and it explains how.
- bradstewart 6y ago
  Now I'm really confused, when does MacOS decide to hide scrollbars? Only when you're using a touchpad?
abledon 6y ago
I wonder if the designers of the systems , after becoming so bored with the status quo, begin to fetishize the sleek hidden thing that is scroll bar right now ... like when coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions etc.. maybe this is just the same phenomenon tearing its head in the design world , except instead of compact code blocks its compact UIs that , to a certain metric, yes , the designer has pushed further on a certain metric ex; see more of the application window cause scroll bar is hidden, but loses sight of what is lost.
- pilsetnieks 6y ago
  > like when coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions I have never seen that to be the case unless in an environment with very heavy constraints like embedded. If anything, a competent programmer 10-15 years in would skew towards more descriptive and clear variable naming as they've been burned in the past by having to maintain some of that "leet" code.
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    Right on. Readability is a virtue in its own right, compactness is not. 'Cute' code that leverages language features in creative and surprising ways, generally belongs on code golf competitions, not production systems. If your code is so 'clever' that only you can understand it, that means you're a bad programmer, not a good one. (That's not to say you should avoid making appropriate use of advanced language features for fear of ignorant readers, though. That's another matter.) Ada was far ahead of the game here, explicitly prioritising readability over writeability, in its language design. With all that said, an experienced programmer may feel less need to write comments, as their own familiarity with the problem-domain and with the language will be well developed.
- bitwize 6y ago
  > coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions etc.. What are you talking about? I've been programming a long time, and clean, readable code with clear, descriptive variable names gives me a stiffy. It suggests a more meticulous mind than mine wrote it. You know who writes the worst Gordian-knot code? Engineers from other disciplines who learned programming as a means to do other engineering calculation. Smart guys, but it's a pain keeping track of what i1, i2, i3, and i4 mean, or their 1970s FORTRAN program flow.
pcmaffey 6y ago
Infinite scroll pages have also contributed to their demise...
- elliekelly 6y ago
  Infinite scroll often make it nearly impossible to click on the site's privacy policy or terms of service in the page footer without going into dev tools. Whenever I come across that issue I wonder whether it's a feature or a bug.
  - madeofpalk 6y ago
    Does this actually happen frequently?
    - FR10 6y ago
      I have this happened to me several times but I wouldn't say its frequent, nowadays most sites show 3-4 extra pages then show the "see more" button.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      More often then I'd like–anecdotally, about once a month or so.
    - stordoff 6y ago
      I've tried to get to a contact link in the footer and been hindered by infinite scrolling on more than one occasion. I wouldn't say it happens a lot, but when it does it's frustrating.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Yes, they also have the problem that they (are usually implemented in such a way that they) break the back button[1] and make it so you can't easily jump to a well-defined block of the results you know you haven't seen. I also see them frequently have a bug where they'll just keep cycling through the same first page-equivalent of results. [1] If you click a result and then hit back, it usually just reloads the page and starts you from the beginning. I think the function of a back button changed at some point. It used to be that "back" was always instant and took you to the exact state of the page before you clicked a link. Now, there's a huge lag on all but the most minimal sites (like HN) and some reload of something gets triggered.

untog 6y ago

> I don't even understand why they would remove them? Who ever complained of a scroll bar? IMO it's all part of this push to combine mobile and desktop UI. On mobile there is a legitimate case to be made for removing them because screen real estate is so precious. But desktop gets clobbered as an unwanted side effect.

bb123 6y ago
I actually think it has more to do with the increasing size and sophistication of the touchpad in Macs. There is no need for a scroll bar when you have a touchpad you can flick (likewise for magic mice).
- spideymans 6y ago
  Yea on macOS, the scroll bar is less of a scroll bar, and more of a scroll indicator. There just isn’t any reason to click on the scroll bar if you have a trackpad. Notably, when you connect a traditional mouse, the scroll bar automatically becomes thicker (easier to click) and always visible, as mice users do have a reason to click/drag the scroll bar. Seems like Apple had this in mind
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    > Yea on macOS, the scroll bar is less of a scroll bar, and more of a scroll indicator. There just isn’t any reason to click on the scroll bar if you have a trackpad. I've seen so many web pages whose "fold line" just aligned so neatly with the end of my viewport that without the scrollbar being visible I would've just closed the page, being disappointed that it's just a meaningless hero page with no content. Similarly, if stuff like selection boxes align just right, you simply can't see there are more options without a scrollbar. It just looks like you only have those options that are on the screen right now. It's just plain bad UX coming from Apple.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I love pages that have CSS to make the first section precisely the size of the viewport…and then have some sort of arrow indicating that you should scroll down to see more content.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  I don't know, not everybody has a macbook or a magic mouse. Plus even old, small, unprecise PC touchpads were enough to scroll a website. To me, it looks more related to the recent fashion of "minimal" interfaces. Like material design and ultra-skinny fonts. Could also be related to the "infinite scroll" some sites have. A scroll bar doesn't make much sense for those.
  - bb123 6y ago
    Pretty much everyone on MacOS (the OS mentioned in the article) does.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  But the touchpad won't help you visualize where on the page you are.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    I use the larger touchpad rather than a mouse when working at my desk, and I have to say that's been a non-issue—for me anyway. A slight touch/movement on the pad and I know exactly where I am (and the device really is just great...). That said, the issues outlined in this article are glaring, and I do notice them when I switch to PC/Linux and a mouse and back. It's definitely something easy to forget, though. The UX is designed to make most of the obviousness fade away and make the process an extension of your natural movements. Kind of like how a good band can take cues from each other without explicitly speaking or reading off of a sheet during a performance. But that doesn't help people who aren't adept professionals, or people operating under completely different circumstances.
    - soco 6y ago
      I've hat as programmer many times this kind of discussion, about many features. And the lesson I learned goes like this: if somebody has an issue with something, it means they have an issue with something. Telling them "I don't have the issue" does not make their issue go away. In this particular case maybe they really want to see where they are just by looking - like the commenters above just said. That's pretty natural for them, we must agree.
      - 52-6F-62 6y ago
        I'm not sure if you thought my comment was an argument or not—it wasn't. I was adding another experience to the pile.
- scaryclam 6y ago
  On a long page, it's really annoying and for some users not possible to flick scroll a long way. On desktop at least I can hit home or end. Removal of the scrollbar is arguably more user hostile on mobile than it is on desktop :/
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  The touchpad is related to mobile too though; trying to close the gap between computer interface and mobile touch interfaces. I don't think we'd have a touchpad if we didn't have mobile touchscreens first. And recall how Apple switched the "scroll direction" on the touchpad so you move your fingers in the same manner as you would directly on a screen to produce a given scroll direction.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Laptops had touch pads even when mobile devices had styluses.
Tagbert 6y ago
The idea is to focus on the content and have the interface elements “fade away”. The problem is that you often need those interface elements to properly interact with the content.

bb123 6y ago

They can be partially or completely re-enabled in the settings on MacOS.

maneesh 6y ago
Where/how?
- djxfade 6y ago
  System Preferences -> General -> Show scroll bars: Always
  - lnanek2 6y ago
    Did that just now and Chrome is still happily hiding them...
    - abraxas 6y ago
      restart Chrome
      - driverdan 6y ago
        Delete Chrome, switch to Firefox.
- ourcat 6y ago
  System Prefs. > General > Show scroll bars.
- hunter2_ 6y ago
  Scroll (heh) to the very bottom of the article and it explains how.
bradstewart 6y ago
Now I'm really confused, when does MacOS decide to hide scrollbars? Only when you're using a touchpad?

abledon 6y ago

I wonder if the designers of the systems , after becoming so bored with the status quo, begin to fetishize the sleek hidden thing that is scroll bar right now ... like when coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions etc.. maybe this is just the same phenomenon tearing its head in the design world , except instead of compact code blocks its compact UIs that , to a certain metric, yes , the designer has pushed further on a certain metric ex; see more of the application window cause scroll bar is hidden, but loses sight of what is lost.

pilsetnieks 6y ago
> like when coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions I have never seen that to be the case unless in an environment with very heavy constraints like embedded. If anything, a competent programmer 10-15 years in would skew towards more descriptive and clear variable naming as they've been burned in the past by having to maintain some of that "leet" code.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  Right on. Readability is a virtue in its own right, compactness is not. 'Cute' code that leverages language features in creative and surprising ways, generally belongs on code golf competitions, not production systems. If your code is so 'clever' that only you can understand it, that means you're a bad programmer, not a good one. (That's not to say you should avoid making appropriate use of advanced language features for fear of ignorant readers, though. That's another matter.) Ada was far ahead of the game here, explicitly prioritising readability over writeability, in its language design. With all that said, an experienced programmer may feel less need to write comments, as their own familiarity with the problem-domain and with the language will be well developed.
bitwize 6y ago
> coders are writing algorithms for say, 10-15 years I bet their code gets a lot more compact and sleek looking , almost akin to tight 3 character variable leet code solutions etc.. What are you talking about? I've been programming a long time, and clean, readable code with clear, descriptive variable names gives me a stiffy. It suggests a more meticulous mind than mine wrote it. You know who writes the worst Gordian-knot code? Engineers from other disciplines who learned programming as a means to do other engineering calculation. Smart guys, but it's a pain keeping track of what i1, i2, i3, and i4 mean, or their 1970s FORTRAN program flow.

pcmaffey 6y ago

Infinite scroll pages have also contributed to their demise...

elliekelly 6y ago
Infinite scroll often make it nearly impossible to click on the site's privacy policy or terms of service in the page footer without going into dev tools. Whenever I come across that issue I wonder whether it's a feature or a bug.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  Does this actually happen frequently?
  - FR10 6y ago
    I have this happened to me several times but I wouldn't say its frequent, nowadays most sites show 3-4 extra pages then show the "see more" button.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    More often then I'd like–anecdotally, about once a month or so.
  - stordoff 6y ago
    I've tried to get to a contact link in the footer and been hindered by infinite scrolling on more than one occasion. I wouldn't say it happens a lot, but when it does it's frustrating.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Yes, they also have the problem that they (are usually implemented in such a way that they) break the back button[1] and make it so you can't easily jump to a well-defined block of the results you know you haven't seen. I also see them frequently have a bug where they'll just keep cycling through the same first page-equivalent of results. [1] If you click a result and then hit back, it usually just reloads the page and starts you from the beginning. I think the function of a back button changed at some point. It used to be that "back" was always instant and took you to the exact state of the page before you clicked a link. Now, there's a huge lag on all but the most minimal sites (like HN) and some reload of something gets triggered.