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Who's the "we" who are "stuck"? The vast majority of programmers don't use low-level languages for writing applications even today, but there is a big niche of

by pron 6y ago

Who's the "we" who are "stuck"? The vast majority of programmers don't use low-level languages for writing applications even today, but there is a big niche of domains where close to perfect control is needed and that's the domain low level languages like C, C++, Ada, Rust and Zig try to address. I wouldn't (and don't) write "ordinary" applications in those languages, but I don't think the domains they target will ever go away or become less important.

notacoward 6y ago
> The vast majority of programmers don't use low-level languages for writing applications I work in a multi-million-line codebase, a significant majority of which is very far from that "need perfect control" domain but is written in a what I'd call a mid-level language - a high-abstraction dialect of C++. So I'd say GP is correct, that too many people are stuck writing code in the wrong language for the task at hand. The need for languages like Zig to improve the lower-level experience (which, as you say, is not going away) and the need for higher-level languages for more common types of programs are not in conflict. They're complementary. It's the mid-level languages that need to DIAF, because they're not really suited for either and pretending to be more general than they are only encourages people to make choices that hurt them.
- pron 6y ago
  I totally agree, and I think that C++ is exactly this "wrong kind of language," and Rust follows in its footsteps, but I'm sure others disagree. For example, for decades Microsoft has shown an attraction to this kind of languages (they love C++, C# is going down that path, and they're showing interest in Rust), so it might ultimately be a matter of taste -- a personal aesthetic preference -- unless somebody is ever able to make some empirical observations that show an objective benefit to one approach over another.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    How is C# similar to C++ in that regard? It's a much higher-level language.
pjmlp 6y ago
For me the way to go are languages that go all the way, C++, Ada, Object Pascal, even .NET and Java could fit into it, if the low level story ever gets straight. Currently AOT like .NET Native seems on the right path to achieve it. Burroughs, Mesa, Modula, Oberon, Interlisp-D,... were on the right path, but in technology not always the best ideas win.

by pron 6y ago

notacoward 6y ago

> The vast majority of programmers don't use low-level languages for writing applications I work in a multi-million-line codebase, a significant majority of which is very far from that "need perfect control" domain but is written in a what I'd call a mid-level language - a high-abstraction dialect of C++. So I'd say GP is correct, that too many people are stuck writing code in the wrong language for the task at hand. The need for languages like Zig to improve the lower-level experience (which, as you say, is not going away) and the need for higher-level languages for more common types of programs are not in conflict. They're complementary. It's the mid-level languages that need to DIAF, because they're not really suited for either and pretending to be more general than they are only encourages people to make choices that hurt them.

pron 6y ago
I totally agree, and I think that C++ is exactly this "wrong kind of language," and Rust follows in its footsteps, but I'm sure others disagree. For example, for decades Microsoft has shown an attraction to this kind of languages (they love C++, C# is going down that path, and they're showing interest in Rust), so it might ultimately be a matter of taste -- a personal aesthetic preference -- unless somebody is ever able to make some empirical observations that show an objective benefit to one approach over another.
- int_19h 6y ago
  How is C# similar to C++ in that regard? It's a much higher-level language.

pjmlp 6y ago

For me the way to go are languages that go all the way, C++, Ada, Object Pascal, even .NET and Java could fit into it, if the low level story ever gets straight. Currently AOT like .NET Native seems on the right path to achieve it. Burroughs, Mesa, Modula, Oberon, Interlisp-D,... were on the right path, but in technology not always the best ideas win.