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I've been there, it's beautiful. Although under ten kilometers from a town of tens of thousands wasn't exactly what I had in mind; I was picturing some of the p

I've been there, it's beautiful. Although under ten kilometers from a town of tens of thousands wasn't exactly what I had in mind; I was picturing some of the places I've been in Africa that don't have mobile reception and may well never get it if it means laying fiber. A solar powered base station that relayed mobile internet, even if slow, would make a meaningful difference. The point of my comment isn't to defend the satellite launches, quite the opposite. It's saying that even as somebody that would be in favor, not carefully considering the trade offs before giving permission to permanently alter the night sky is not acceptable. This is exactly the kind of thing that bureaucracy should make painfully slow.

vanderZwan 6y ago
> I was picturing some of the places I've been in Africa that don't have mobile reception and may well never get it if it means laying fiber. When was the last time that you were in Africa? And in which country, because it's an entire continent. EDIT: So I guess HN doesn't like being called out on https://africasacountry.com/ https://africasacountry.com/ issues? Well sorry not sorry, but as someone born in Ghana I'm more a little tired of the sentiment on display in the cited part of comment I'm reacting to, which is the implication that Africa as an entire continent is inherently and forever will be a place too poor to have proper infrastructure.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  This isn't about being able to afford infrastructure. It's about population density in rural areas. North America and Australia (where I'm from) have the exact same issue. No country is going to spend a million bucks to lay fiber to ten person towns in the middle of nowhere.
  - NationalPark 6y ago
    The U.S. actually does do this! The FCC alone spends more than $2bn annually subsidizing telecom infrastructure in rural areas. There are a number of other similar programs, and Ajit Pai (current FCC chairman) recently proposed another $20bn of spending on subsidies for rural internet connections: https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-204-billion-rural-digital-opportunity-fund-0 https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-204-billion-rural-...
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      If Ajit actually cared he'd unlicense more spectrum. Paying the Daughters Bell our own tax money to encourage them to further victimize us is fascist.
  - vanderZwan 6y ago
    And yet you used Africa as an example, instead of North America and Australia. Why? EDIT: Wow, you guys are really bad at admitting your own blatantly obvious biases, aren't you?
    - unholythree 6y ago
      I assume because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...
      - vanderZwan 6y ago
        This is completely irrelevant to GP's claim that Africa was only used as an example because of population density.
    - reitzensteinm 6y ago
      Because I've been to the Sahara desert and it's the most remote place I've ever been. I experienced the gaps in coverage first hand. There are equivalent places in central Australia, but even though I grew up here I haven't been more than a few hours drive away from the coasts. I haven't been to North America. Russia didn't cross my mind, but I haven't been there either. This isn't to say I don't have warped perspectives or prejudices about Africa. I didn't realize the population density is that high in the south, where I haven't been. Western media only discusses African countries when things go wrong. The only people I know from there are three white families who left South Africa. If you asked me to draw a map of the countries it would be my worst continent. The original post though really was just based on my personal experience with remoteness.
      - vanderZwan 6y ago
        I believe you, thank you for engaging with my questions in a civil manner (I can't say the same for the way people initially downvoted my questions, but that isn't your fault of course - I hope it was clear that the "you guys" in my previous comment referred to them).
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    >> No country is going to spend a million bucks to lay fiber to ten person towns in the middle of nowhere. Why not? It has been done before. Every developed country went through a period of rural electrification whereby schemes were developed to encourage and/or force electric companies to run wires out into the rural farmland. Internet is the modern analogue for electrification. Those same approaches would work equally well for fiber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_electrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_electrification The American approach: "The Rural Electrification Administration (REA) was created by executive order as an independent federal bureau in 1935, authorized by the United States Congress in the 1936 Rural Electrification Act, and later in 1939, reorganized as a division of the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture. It was charged with administering loan programs for electrification and telephone service in rural areas. Between 1935 and 1939 – or the first 4½ years after REA's establishment, the number of farms using electric services more than doubled"
    - readams 6y ago
      Large scale infrastructure is no longer possible in the US for all kinds of reasons. But you can't just compare infrastructure projects from the 1930s and pretend it will work. If you had to build the interstate highway system, or transcontinental railroad, or Hoover dam today, it would take decades and cost many times the price in real dollars.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    If we're talking about population density in rural areas, then the poor countries of Africa (excluding Saharan desert) have a much higher rural population density than middle of USA, and there rolling out cell coverage is quite feasible, definitely more feasible than rolling out an electricity grid - there's already something like a hundred million people in sub-Saharan Africa who don't have electricity connections but do have mobile phones and coverage.
  - beached_whale 6y ago
    Funny, Canada, even less dense, is doing exactly that. Maybe not 10, but at multiple levels of government there have been up to half the capital without many strings attached to get broadband out to rural areas. My understanding though, it's not work the time even with the fibre there for the larger companies in many cases. This is the latest program https://www.canada.ca/en/radio-television-telecommunications/news/2020/08/crtc-broadband-fund-selected-projects.html https://www.canada.ca/en/radio-television-telecommunications...
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Sure, and the US had a similar program. Just because the government promised something doesn't count until the thing is actually delivered.
      - throwaway2048 6y ago
        Alberta already has one of the largest fiber networks on earth and has for more than a decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_SuperNet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_SuperNet
      - beached_whale 6y ago
        I know of at least some of the communities on the James Bay coast recently got fibre service and I think others along the Northern coast of Canada, along anecdotally several others in rural Ontario. I am talking about money already spent and delivered, not future project that will probably be delivered on.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > So I guess HN doesn't like being called out on Except they could have been referring to the continent. "some of the places" could refer to different places in different African countries, hence "some"; and doesn't imply all, everywhere, or "forever" in Africa.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Would you have had a second thought if someone said "Some of the places I've been in North America don't have great reception"? OP never claimed or implied Africa was a country.
- gnopgnip 6y ago
  When I was last in Djibouti 2g coverage was spotty, something like 20% of the country had no coverage, no 3g.

vanderZwan 6y ago

> I was picturing some of the places I've been in Africa that don't have mobile reception and may well never get it if it means laying fiber. When was the last time that you were in Africa? And in which country, because it's an entire continent. EDIT: So I guess HN doesn't like being called out on https://africasacountry.com/ https://africasacountry.com/ issues? Well sorry not sorry, but as someone born in Ghana I'm more a little tired of the sentiment on display in the cited part of comment I'm reacting to, which is the implication that Africa as an entire continent is inherently and forever will be a place too poor to have proper infrastructure.

reitzensteinm 6y ago
This isn't about being able to afford infrastructure. It's about population density in rural areas. North America and Australia (where I'm from) have the exact same issue. No country is going to spend a million bucks to lay fiber to ten person towns in the middle of nowhere.
- NationalPark 6y ago
  The U.S. actually does do this! The FCC alone spends more than $2bn annually subsidizing telecom infrastructure in rural areas. There are a number of other similar programs, and Ajit Pai (current FCC chairman) recently proposed another $20bn of spending on subsidies for rural internet connections: https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-204-billion-rural-digital-opportunity-fund-0 https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-204-billion-rural-...
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    If Ajit actually cared he'd unlicense more spectrum. Paying the Daughters Bell our own tax money to encourage them to further victimize us is fascist.
- vanderZwan 6y ago
  And yet you used Africa as an example, instead of North America and Australia. Why? EDIT: Wow, you guys are really bad at admitting your own blatantly obvious biases, aren't you?
  - unholythree 6y ago
    I assume because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...
    - vanderZwan 6y ago
      This is completely irrelevant to GP's claim that Africa was only used as an example because of population density.
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    Because I've been to the Sahara desert and it's the most remote place I've ever been. I experienced the gaps in coverage first hand. There are equivalent places in central Australia, but even though I grew up here I haven't been more than a few hours drive away from the coasts. I haven't been to North America. Russia didn't cross my mind, but I haven't been there either. This isn't to say I don't have warped perspectives or prejudices about Africa. I didn't realize the population density is that high in the south, where I haven't been. Western media only discusses African countries when things go wrong. The only people I know from there are three white families who left South Africa. If you asked me to draw a map of the countries it would be my worst continent. The original post though really was just based on my personal experience with remoteness.
    - vanderZwan 6y ago
      I believe you, thank you for engaging with my questions in a civil manner (I can't say the same for the way people initially downvoted my questions, but that isn't your fault of course - I hope it was clear that the "you guys" in my previous comment referred to them).
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> No country is going to spend a million bucks to lay fiber to ten person towns in the middle of nowhere. Why not? It has been done before. Every developed country went through a period of rural electrification whereby schemes were developed to encourage and/or force electric companies to run wires out into the rural farmland. Internet is the modern analogue for electrification. Those same approaches would work equally well for fiber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_electrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_electrification The American approach: "The Rural Electrification Administration (REA) was created by executive order as an independent federal bureau in 1935, authorized by the United States Congress in the 1936 Rural Electrification Act, and later in 1939, reorganized as a division of the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture. It was charged with administering loan programs for electrification and telephone service in rural areas. Between 1935 and 1939 – or the first 4½ years after REA's establishment, the number of farms using electric services more than doubled"
  - readams 6y ago
    Large scale infrastructure is no longer possible in the US for all kinds of reasons. But you can't just compare infrastructure projects from the 1930s and pretend it will work. If you had to build the interstate highway system, or transcontinental railroad, or Hoover dam today, it would take decades and cost many times the price in real dollars.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  If we're talking about population density in rural areas, then the poor countries of Africa (excluding Saharan desert) have a much higher rural population density than middle of USA, and there rolling out cell coverage is quite feasible, definitely more feasible than rolling out an electricity grid - there's already something like a hundred million people in sub-Saharan Africa who don't have electricity connections but do have mobile phones and coverage.
- beached_whale 6y ago
  Funny, Canada, even less dense, is doing exactly that. Maybe not 10, but at multiple levels of government there have been up to half the capital without many strings attached to get broadband out to rural areas. My understanding though, it's not work the time even with the fibre there for the larger companies in many cases. This is the latest program https://www.canada.ca/en/radio-television-telecommunications/news/2020/08/crtc-broadband-fund-selected-projects.html https://www.canada.ca/en/radio-television-telecommunications...
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Sure, and the US had a similar program. Just because the government promised something doesn't count until the thing is actually delivered.
    - throwaway2048 6y ago
      Alberta already has one of the largest fiber networks on earth and has for more than a decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_SuperNet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_SuperNet
    - beached_whale 6y ago
      I know of at least some of the communities on the James Bay coast recently got fibre service and I think others along the Northern coast of Canada, along anecdotally several others in rural Ontario. I am talking about money already spent and delivered, not future project that will probably be delivered on.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
Chris2048 6y ago
> So I guess HN doesn't like being called out on Except they could have been referring to the continent. "some of the places" could refer to different places in different African countries, hence "some"; and doesn't imply all, everywhere, or "forever" in Africa.
oh_sigh 6y ago
Would you have had a second thought if someone said "Some of the places I've been in North America don't have great reception"? OP never claimed or implied Africa was a country.
gnopgnip 6y ago
When I was last in Djibouti 2g coverage was spotty, something like 20% of the country had no coverage, no 3g.