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The behavior demonstrated by the mob is utterly abhorrent, and we should all oppose it as vigorously as possible. But the "suggestions" section is not construc

The behavior demonstrated by the mob is utterly abhorrent, and we should all oppose it as vigorously as possible. But the "suggestions" section is not constructive. > When these events happen to your employees, are you investing actual money to support them? I'm sorry, but you don't even know the human beings on my team. > It's easy to dismiss these trolls as incel 4channers that we shun and don't associate with. Lol no. These are your people. They work at your companies and write your code. They are harassing or doxxing your other employees. This toxic behavior is still very much a part of your tech culture, and you keep rewarding it. Well, after building an airtight case for incredibly gross behavior on the part of the mob, you lost me completely. The implication is that "incel 4channers" are mainstream programmers. They are not. Not even close. I have worked with hundreds, and not one of them is like this. This is the vocal minority that the internet enables to speak out of proportion to their numbers, and make us all miserable. And the phenomenon of a vocal malignant minority is present in every domain, so why are we making this about our colleagues in the tech community? No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. I'm extremely sorry this talented programmer had to deal with them, but becoming bitter only fuels their sense of importance. The best revenge is living well.

Ndymium 6y ago
> No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. This is simply not true. "Normal", regular people do this too. I remember a while back a Finnish journalist wrote an article about meeting one of his online abusers[1], who had - on a Finnish copy of 4chan - wished that an immigrant would stab him and his whole family to death. Turned out the offender was a regular family man with a job and young children. He could not offer an explanation for his words and was not politically active. These boards, their super hateful environment, and the presumed anonymity can get even a normal person to sling online hate. Even this person in the article said that his public persona in his normal life was completely different and not representative of his online comments. [1] https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/05/30/nettivihaa-tyossaan-kohtaava-sami-koivisto-tapasi-miehen-joka-toivoi-hanen https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/05/30/nettivihaa-tyossaan... (in Finnish) EDIT: Found it in English: https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/11/06/face-to-face-with-a-man-who-wished-an-asylum-seeker-would-kill-my-family-the https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/11/06/face-to-face-with-a...
- appleflaxen 6y ago
  that's really interesting. thanks for the relevant anecdote. But say that guy works for me, and he is hiding his behavior well. What am I supposed to do with that possibility?
  - mdoms 6y ago
    As an employer or manager frankly it's neither your responsibility nor your business to investigate how your reports are spending their personal time. First of all, don't lose any sleep over it. If one of your guys is a huge troll it's not your fault that you didn't know. These assholes are going to look like everyday normal people in RL. Secondly don't go snooping on your employees without cause. This should go without saying.
- BTCOG 6y ago
  plenty of these people leaving super hateful comments all around the internet are just everday, nice friendly people who choose to say whatever the fuck they want on a forum or chan. It seems a lot of people throughout this very thread, would rather reduce them all to a certain ideology or hardcore stereotype all 4chan users as only white males. You couldn't be more wrong about that. Tons of people get on there and talk a bunch of trash like it's a video game and then go back to their "life."
mft_ 6y ago
> Well, after building an airtight case for incredibly gross behavior on the part of the mob, you lost me completely. The implication is that "incel 4channers" are mainstream programmers. They are not. Not even close. I have worked with hundreds, and not one of them is like this. 1. citation needed 2. The fact that people active on Github (i.e. with active work accounts, according to the article) were part of this would suggest that your overall point is probably wrong. Maybe your point about the small sample of people you've worked with is true, but I'd be surprised. After all, how would you know - you think that your colleagues would openly share that they're secretly a racist/sexist/whatever internet troll?
happytoexplain 6y ago
>No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This is an understandable assumption, but it's wrong. I spend a lot of time on 4chan, and I even know who some of these people are in real life. Some of them are adults with jobs, families who support them (though none have children), and circles of IRL like-minded friends.
pwinnski 6y ago
It is comforting to believe that none of the people you've worked with would ever do anything like this. It is also probably incorrect. People are usually not very open about their bad behavior, and if they were, that would say much about their perception of you. I worked with a drug addict who had, more than once, shot up while in the office. I only learned this after he died of an overdose. When I expressed my shock at his use of drugs, several other employees expressed their shock at my shock. It turned out that those of us who were known for smoking a lot of weed had some knowledge of his drug use, while those of us he perceived as squares had no clue at all. So kudos for being the kind of person the nasty abusers don't want to tip their hand to, but don't assume you haven't worked with nasty abusers.
- appleflaxen 6y ago
  Of course it's possible, just as it's possible for someone to be an abusive partner when their conduct at work with colleagues is normal. But what do you do with that information? What is the action you want from this? Because it seems like the only thing I can do is make it clear it's not tolerated, which seems a little... bizarre... given that it's not happening. Let's all be mindful, aware, and empathetic. But saying they are "on my team" is an unhelpful assertion with neither evidence nor utility in solving this social phenomenon.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Your initial comment was very dismissive, and I believe you erred in your assumptions. So one action I would want is for people to not be so dismissive when you hear about the very real and very widespread experiences of victims of online abuse. > No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This is provably untrue, and that bad assumption is driving you to miss out on opportunities to be mindful, aware, and empathetic. So please, try to actually be mindful, aware, and empathetic. Thanks.
  - BTCOG 6y ago
    That is where she goes really wonky with the white supremacy bit and "Fix this shit these are your devs/employees" like what is any manager to do? Go home with people and do a deep seated documentary on each employee, pry into their personal lives and attempt to root out anyone with ideology that she doesn't like? It's fine to not like bigotry and racism, however it's not fine to tell everyone else what they can think or believe. Huge issue right now. You cannot legislate morality. Period.
raydev 6y ago
> No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This might be a comforting thought for you, but it is just not true.

Ndymium 6y ago

> No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. This is simply not true. "Normal", regular people do this too. I remember a while back a Finnish journalist wrote an article about meeting one of his online abusers[1], who had - on a Finnish copy of 4chan - wished that an immigrant would stab him and his whole family to death. Turned out the offender was a regular family man with a job and young children. He could not offer an explanation for his words and was not politically active. These boards, their super hateful environment, and the presumed anonymity can get even a normal person to sling online hate. Even this person in the article said that his public persona in his normal life was completely different and not representative of his online comments. [1] https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/05/30/nettivihaa-tyossaan-kohtaava-sami-koivisto-tapasi-miehen-joka-toivoi-hanen https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/05/30/nettivihaa-tyossaan... (in Finnish) EDIT: Found it in English: https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/11/06/face-to-face-with-a-man-who-wished-an-asylum-seeker-would-kill-my-family-the https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2019/11/06/face-to-face-with-a...

appleflaxen 6y ago
that's really interesting. thanks for the relevant anecdote. But say that guy works for me, and he is hiding his behavior well. What am I supposed to do with that possibility?
- mdoms 6y ago
  As an employer or manager frankly it's neither your responsibility nor your business to investigate how your reports are spending their personal time. First of all, don't lose any sleep over it. If one of your guys is a huge troll it's not your fault that you didn't know. These assholes are going to look like everyday normal people in RL. Secondly don't go snooping on your employees without cause. This should go without saying.
BTCOG 6y ago
plenty of these people leaving super hateful comments all around the internet are just everday, nice friendly people who choose to say whatever the fuck they want on a forum or chan. It seems a lot of people throughout this very thread, would rather reduce them all to a certain ideology or hardcore stereotype all 4chan users as only white males. You couldn't be more wrong about that. Tons of people get on there and talk a bunch of trash like it's a video game and then go back to their "life."

mft_ 6y ago

> Well, after building an airtight case for incredibly gross behavior on the part of the mob, you lost me completely. The implication is that "incel 4channers" are mainstream programmers. They are not. Not even close. I have worked with hundreds, and not one of them is like this. 1. citation needed 2. The fact that people active on Github (i.e. with active work accounts, according to the article) were part of this would suggest that your overall point is probably wrong. Maybe your point about the small sample of people you've worked with is true, but I'd be surprised. After all, how would you know - you think that your colleagues would openly share that they're secretly a racist/sexist/whatever internet troll?

happytoexplain 6y ago

>No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This is an understandable assumption, but it's wrong. I spend a lot of time on 4chan, and I even know who some of these people are in real life. Some of them are adults with jobs, families who support them (though none have children), and circles of IRL like-minded friends.

pwinnski 6y ago

It is comforting to believe that none of the people you've worked with would ever do anything like this. It is also probably incorrect. People are usually not very open about their bad behavior, and if they were, that would say much about their perception of you. I worked with a drug addict who had, more than once, shot up while in the office. I only learned this after he died of an overdose. When I expressed my shock at his use of drugs, several other employees expressed their shock at my shock. It turned out that those of us who were known for smoking a lot of weed had some knowledge of his drug use, while those of us he perceived as squares had no clue at all. So kudos for being the kind of person the nasty abusers don't want to tip their hand to, but don't assume you haven't worked with nasty abusers.

appleflaxen 6y ago
Of course it's possible, just as it's possible for someone to be an abusive partner when their conduct at work with colleagues is normal. But what do you do with that information? What is the action you want from this? Because it seems like the only thing I can do is make it clear it's not tolerated, which seems a little... bizarre... given that it's not happening. Let's all be mindful, aware, and empathetic. But saying they are "on my team" is an unhelpful assertion with neither evidence nor utility in solving this social phenomenon.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Your initial comment was very dismissive, and I believe you erred in your assumptions. So one action I would want is for people to not be so dismissive when you hear about the very real and very widespread experiences of victims of online abuse. > No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This is provably untrue, and that bad assumption is driving you to miss out on opportunities to be mindful, aware, and empathetic. So please, try to actually be mindful, aware, and empathetic. Thanks.
- BTCOG 6y ago
  That is where she goes really wonky with the white supremacy bit and "Fix this shit these are your devs/employees" like what is any manager to do? Go home with people and do a deep seated documentary on each employee, pry into their personal lives and attempt to root out anyone with ideology that she doesn't like? It's fine to not like bigotry and racism, however it's not fine to tell everyone else what they can think or believe. Huge issue right now. You cannot legislate morality. Period.

raydev 6y ago

> No normal adult with a job, maybe a family, maybe a pet, and a million other things to do has time for this. They are either children, or bitter social and emotional pariahs. This might be a comforting thought for you, but it is just not true.